Finding Purpose Through Pain: A Therapist's Journey with Chronic Illness
When therapist Danielle L. McDowell, LPC, welcomed her son into the world during the COVID pandemic, she had no idea that this joyful event would coincide with the beginning of a challenging health journey. As a licensed professional counselor with a thriving practice and dreams of creating a wellness center, Danielle suddenly found herself grappling with mysterious symptoms that threatened to derail everything she had worked for.
When Your Body Says "Not Today"
"I had all these things I was actively working on, but my body was like, 'No, we're not going to do it like in the way you envisioned it,'" Danielle shares. The symptoms appeared seemingly out of nowhere – debilitating body pain, insomnia, and perhaps most frightening for a therapist, significant brain fog.
For eight months, Danielle encountered the all-too-common experience of medical dismissal.
Different doctors attributed her symptoms to stress, depression, or simply low vitamin D levels. "I would challenge that because I was like, 'I'm a therapist. I kind of know how that works,’" she explains.
It wasn't until she found a doctor who suggested fibromyalgia and prescribed medication that finally brought some relief that Danielle began to understand what was happening in her body.
Redefining Success and Embracing Limits
Coming to terms with chronic illness meant completely rethinking how Danielle approached her work and home life.
She reduced her client caseload, brought on interns to handle administrative tasks, and extended timelines for her professional goals. At home, she hired cleaning help and released herself from the expectations of cooking dinner every night.
"The first thing was to accept that I'm not a robot," Danielle reflects. "I really need to be more conscious about thinking about my yeses and ensuring that I am not overextending myself too much."
This shift wasn't easy, especially for someone raised by women who seemed to "do it all" effortlessly.
“I would wonder like, what about me is so different that I can't do all the things that they did?" she admits.
Only later, through honest conversations with her mother and grandmother, did Danielle learn that they too had struggled – they simply hadn't shown that side to their children.
From Survival Mode to Intentional Living
Danielle's journey with chronic illness has parallels to her earlier experience raising a daughter with serious mental health challenges – an experience that ultimately led her from teaching high school to becoming a therapist.
"For most of my 20s, I had that same survival mentality where it was like, I need to be doing everything possible to make sure we eat, that we're safe, we have a nice home," she explains. "It took me a very long time to turn off survival mode and understand... I can just be here. I don't have to be fight, flight, or freeze all the time."
This shift from constant survival to intentional presence has transformed how Danielle shows up as a mother, therapist, and human being. It's allowed her to reevaluate past parenting moments and even recently apologize to her now-adult daughter for times when she was physically present but emotionally absent.
A Vision Reimagined
Perhaps most powerfully, Danielle's experience with fibromyalgia has reshaped her professional vision.
Long before her diagnosis, she dreamed of creating a holistic wellness center where people could access various healing modalities. Now, that vision has deepened and found a new purpose.
"I think I'm supposed to make it for them," she says, referring to others living with autoimmune conditions.
"When I learned about what fibromyalgia was, it was like not a lot of good resources to help make it clear... These are all the ways to address symptoms to bring health and to help to calm down some of the pain and the difficulty sleeping."
Through her own struggles, Danielle has discovered a calling to create the resource she desperately needed when first navigating her diagnosis.
Lessons in Human Connection
Living with chronic illness has also transformed how Danielle understands and connects with others who are suffering.
"Before my symptoms, I didn't realize that the ability to just move in the world without hurting... is one of those gifts that I didn't take seriously until I started having problems with it," she reflects. "When others would tell me about it... I would empathize, but I had no real understanding of what it all meant until it happened to me."
This hard-won empathy has deepened her therapeutic practice and personal relationships.
Danielle particularly values connections with others who truly understand chronic illness: "I've met people who have the same diagnosis who have been like supportive... when I'm crying and when I'm just like feeling overwhelmed and down... I've noticed that that's been really different than just like people who don't get it."
Embracing Grace and Moving Forward
Throughout her journey, Danielle has learned to give herself grace – something she encourages others to do as well.
"We do the best we can with what we have, and when we gain more information, we get to make different choices," she shares.
"It's not beneficial to sit in what you would have, should have, could have done. It's better to just understand that this is where I am now. And my next choice will be my best choice."
For anyone navigating chronic illness, parenting challenges, or simply the everyday struggles of being human, Danielle's story offers a powerful reminder: our pain can become purposeful, our limitations can lead to wisdom, and with enough grace and self-compassion, we can always make our next choice our best choice.
To connect with Danielle and learn more about her work serving clients in Virginia and Florida, connect with her at www.littherapyllc.com or on Instagram @AchievableGreat.
Disclaimer: Everything we discuss here is just meant to be general education and information. It's not intended as personal mental health or medical advice. If you have any questions related to your unique circumstances, please contact a licensed therapist or medical professional in your state of residence.
Listen to Danielle’s interview with me, Destiny, on Ep 89: Finding Purpose Through Pain - A Therapist's Journey with Chronic Illness
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Episode transcribed with AI and will contain errors that are not representative of the actual word or meaning of the sentence.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC
[00:00:00] I have really exciting news. It's probably mostly exciting for me because I've been thinking about this so long. But, about six months ago, one of my colleagues, Taylor Pastor, who also is a therapist here in Georgia, was running a therapy group called Welcome to The Waiting Room, and if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, then you probably know that that name perfectly encapsulates everything that I talk about.
Everything that you all are mostly experiencing. Okay, finding the right diagnosis is like constantly, figuratively and literally being in a waiting room, and so the whole concept of welcome to the waiting room is
something that just feels really meaningful and special, so. The membership that I started a few months ago, which I don't promote it a whole lot, and I've gotta get a little bit better about that, um, is now called Welcome to the Waiting Room. I was calling it mentally Well while Chronically Ill, only because that also just, it just felt clear and concise.
I knew it wasn't like a cute or [00:01:00] clever name. It just was clear it told you exactly what we were working on. Being mentally well while living with a chronic illness. So welcome to The Waiting Room, is the new name of our membership. I hope that you'll join me. The link is in the show notes if you do want to join.
And each month you get two to three sometimes, um, support groups. Friday at noon. It's a general kind of like, we talk a lot about like managing appointments and the stress of it all and other. Group members will give really good advice on what they're working on or how they're getting through certain things.
And it's a really good supportive space. It's, um, there's only a couple people that show up each week, so if you like small, that's, that's how it is at this moment. And then starting May 8th, I'm really excited because my good friend and colleague, Jessica Sullivan Sanchez, she is a sex therapist here in Atlanta, Georgia.
And she's gonna be running a new group for sex and chronic pain specifically. So she also lives with EDS and [00:02:00] understands a lot of the complications that come along with intimacy and chronic pain. So that support group is going to be for folks who are trying to figure out how to be intimate while living with these conditions.
Um, and so this, this group is for people who are just at that place in their life, like they really. Please know that intimacy is such a
sensitive topic, and there's no pressure to conform or to perform, in ways that you don't want to. So this is a completely optional group for those who just feel like, yeah, they, they do want to engage more often, but they, they really just can't because of the physical and emotional aspects that come along with not feeling good enough, not feeling, you know, or being scared that you'll.
Have a painful experience during it, and then there's a lot of shame and embarrassment and things like that. So if that's what you're dealing with and you want support around that, please join our membership. Um, again, that's gonna be Thursdays at 2:00 PM Eastern, and that's, [00:03:00] that will be run by my good friend Jessica Sullivan Sanchez.
The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast is meant to be a place where people with chronic illnesses can come to feel, heard, seen, and safe. While listening to mental health therapists and other medical professionals talk about the realities of treating difficult conditions, this might be a new concept for you, one in which you never have to worry about someone inferring that it's all in your head.
We dive deep into the human side of treating complex medical conditions and help you find professionals that leave you feeling hopeful for the future. I hope you love what you learned here, and please consider leaving a review or sharing this podcast with someone you love. This podcast is meant for educational purposes only.
For specific questions related to your unique circumstances, please contact a licensed medical professional in your state of [00:04:00] residence.
Danielle Boost. McDowell is a self-described warrior who shares her experiences from being broken and confused to a licensed professional counselor, Virginia Board of Counseling approved supervisor advocate, bestselling author and speaker.
As a former high school teacher and mental health professional, Danielle channeled her passion for empowering others through coaching and counseling them to identify their assets and uncover their inner warrior mindset.
Today we'll be talking about Danielle's story and how she found purpose through pain. And as always, I think a little caveat is necessary. Finding purpose through your pain is not something that we force. It's not something that you should be doing right now right here, but along this journey, if you keep taking one step in front of the other, I do think we all tend to come to a place where we do find some kind of meaning or purpose as for as to why we go through the things that we go through.
Maybe it's a little bit less about like this thing needed to happen to make something good [00:05:00] happen and more about this thing did happen regardless of whether we like it or not. And so can we find something that feels a little bit redeeming that makes this not all worthless?
So hopefully my conversation today with Danielle will help shed light on that a little bit for you all. Also, I hit record a little bit late when we started this conversation, so you are catching us. A little bit in the middle of a sentence, but it's still towards the very beginning of our conversation, so please bear with us as we get the beginning started.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: I speak, uh, openly about raising a daughter with a serious mental illness and how I got into the field because I used to be a high school teacher, um, prior to her struggles. And so I leaned into mental health to help my own baby, but, um, have been able to help many other people in the process.
Um, in recent years. Working through fibromyalgia [00:06:00] and having a hard time navigating like what that meant for my life and goals that I had already previously kind of sought out and was working towards and then like, Getting in a space of almost like despair because like my body was doing what it wanted to do.
And so I had all these like things I was actively working on but my body was like, no, we're not going to do it like in the way you envisioned it. So those symptoms around like body pain, difficulty sleeping, insomnia, like. All of these things, brain fog, it like all came to play, um, in a way that was really challenging for me because I had, um, I was pregnant around COVID, I had a baby around that time, um, he was born and then these symptoms started showing up and I was like, what is [00:07:00] happening?
At first I thought it was maybe early menopause, right? Um, and doctors were dismissive. About like what was happening. So, um, that journey in itself has been really difficult. In the last few years.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Did you have symptoms, anything pointing to chronic health issues before that that maybe you missed or it just was not there at all?
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: It was not there at all. It wasn't. And so I was blindsided when symptoms came. Um, because I, I know, I had, um, experienced heart challenges In the past, like in my thirties, but that was over a decade ago when, um, that happened and I seemed well up until having my son and I'm not really sure what happened around that time to cause the symptoms to kind of flare up, but they did and I felt like I was [00:08:00] losing my mind.
One minute, have plenty of energy, sleep, you know, no brain fog. And then it just. It just didn't make sense.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Can you maybe say a little bit more about just, how thOse symptoms started to impact
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: your life? Definitely. So we're speaking in a time where I'm licensed and my intentions is to grow a practice. I had this vision of a wellness center prior to my symptoms and it looked like a wellness center for everyone.
Um, but when grief happened first, my grandfather passed. And I had a really hard time navigating, like, the grief of that, um, and I was starting to exhibit basic symptoms around feeling tired and not really, um, understanding why, like, I couldn't get the words out sometimes, or I had [00:09:00] this, like, brain fog moment where, like, I'm talking to a client.
And I know this person like I know this person's name. I know all the things but it's like not coming to me. Um, and I was really scared like worry that this may mean that I won't be able to work and I won't be able to continue. These things I was doing for my big audacious goals for my life. Um, and so I think it started off with like doing my own research because I went to the doctor.
And they just would say my blood tests were okay. I think they told me like my vitamin D was low. And so I started taking the vitamin D pill, but everything else looked good. And so they couldn't explain my symptoms. Um, so I got the whole, it's stress, you know, depression probably. Um, and I was like, I don't think that that fits perfectly, um, and so I would challenge that because I was like, I'm a [00:10:00] therapist.
I kind of know how that works. And I'm not feeling like all of the criteria is not being met for it to be depression. Um, and so I would have to go see other doctors. And so. The first doctor, you know, told me it was depression. The second doctor said, you know, your vitamin D low is low, but we don't see anything else.
It'll probably just go away on its own time. And I think it was a good eight months before I finally had a doctor say, this might be fibromyalgia. Um, and so as I'm hearing your symptoms, I'm going to try you out on a med to see if that helps. Um, and the med did help and I was like, Hmm. And so, uh, I transitioned to this doctor who said this might be fibromyalgia and started, uh, seeing like what kind of quality of life.
Will I be able to now have? [00:11:00] Will I need to take meds for the rest of my life? Um, and, and re evaluating what it meant for me to be all in for my goals, because this health is wealth, like, is continuing to, like, be a foundational value for me. I can't be wealthy in these other things that I desire for myself if I don't take care of myself and so that was the focus I started to do less.
And, and really, um, spend more time working on my inner work and, and taking care of myself. And so I've been able to slowly pick some things back up, but also be very mindful not to overdo it.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. I was going to ask, what, what are some of the things you did to take care of yourself and doing less sounds like it's one of them.
Meanwhile, you are still running your practice. And so maybe you can talk about what it's like to, to still do what you want to [00:12:00] do while also doing less and taking care of yourself.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Well, the first thing was to accept that I'm not a robot, and, uh, I really need to be more conscious about, uh, thinking about my yeses and, and ensuring that I am not, uh, overextending myself.
too much where I will have a big setback because the meds help me rest and it helps to deal with the pain. But if I overdo it, no pills will stop me from hurting for days sometimes. So, um, I got conscious there. I started using like support from like interns. Uh, to do some of that, like, administrative things, um, and that was helpful, and I decreased my caseload, um, and I got really conscious about, like, how many individuals I was supporting and when I was doing that, um, and I took some of my, like, goals that were kind of short term and [00:13:00] made them more long term, and so it gave me more time to focus on them, and that helped me.
Quite a bit. And then I just kept educating myself around like holistic ways. To navigate my symptoms outside of just medication and so like meditation grounding has been really big like watching what I'm eating because there are particular foods that can sometimes make my symptoms worse and making sure that I give myself enough time to sleep, um, has been helpful.
And then talking about it like I have met people who have the same diagnosis. Who's been like supportive and when I'm crying and when I'm just like feeling overwhelmed and down because like my mind wants to do something in my body is like, not today, girl, and you need like supportive people who understand.
And I've noticed that that's [00:14:00] been really different than just like people who don't get it. Those who actually have the symptoms can relate and, and show empathy in a really powerful way. And so all those things were helpful for me. Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I'm curious as you talked a little bit about what you kind of reduced at work.
And I also really loved, um, giving yourself more time, like a task or a project, you know, this passion project that I'm doing doesn't have to be done this month. It can be done this year. I, I, I resonate with that. Um, What about at home? Like, what did your home life look like? Did you do less at home or were you more intentional there in any way?
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: I had to do less at home. So like, um, I have five kids total. Uh, the oldest is like 25. And then the youngest is three. And so we have two small, well, smaller. So we have a 14 year old at home now and a three, all the older ones are out of the home. [00:15:00] Um, and my focus with COVID was being home. working my job and attending to them, right?
And so for a time, um, I was not really a stay at home mom because I was still working my private practice, but my smallest kid was here with me. And so I was attending to daycare. here and there and then seeing clients in between. Um, I learned like that was too much. And so we put them in daycare and that helped.
So most of the kids are out during the day. I only have to focus on my clients. And so that was one benefit. I also knew like weekends were like clean up and do laundry days for me. And I would be exhausted because like you work the whole week and then you still spend Saturday cleaning up and washing.
And so I would move back into Monday tired. And so I got comfortable with using money to pay someone to come in and help twice a month to take [00:16:00] some of the load off of the getting all the things done. Um, and I was able to move into my weeks easier and my body. Um, didn't feel so beat down and tired. So, um, I navigated that way.
I got comfortable with knowing that I wasn't going to be someone who cooked a meal every night for my kids. And that's okay. Right? Um, And if you, did
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: you used to do that and then you, you stopped or was it really just shame that you never did it or
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: yeah, honest shame around all of it. Like, I feel some type of way that like, sometimes I can't take care of my kids, wash the clothes.
have the energy to play the games with them. And so I do have to like combat those feelings because I do I think sometimes perceive myself as to be being a robot in some ways because I was raised with a woman who my mother seemed like she [00:17:00] did it all gracefully, right? My grandmother too, like I would wonder like what about me is so different that I can't do all the things that they did.
Yeah. Um, have been grateful that I've talked to them recently about, like, what that looked like for me, and I'm able to hear that it was really hard for them. They just didn't show me that side of themselves
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: as a child. It is good to hear,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I was also curious, did they have a support network that we don't tend to have in this generation, or was it just, no, they just, did it and it was really hard and wore themselves thin.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Yeah. I think it was a little bit of both. And so like, I remember in my childhood spending time with like cousins. Um, and I think mom got some breaks then when we stayed there or she would drop us off at the grandparents house. So I think there were like some built in supports, but for the most part, like they Manage [00:18:00] things like and they had that kind of spirit where you just got to get it done.
Um, and so I think both both but me growing up, it seemed like it was effortless. Like, they just, they cooked the meals, they cleaned the things, they ironed the clothes. Like, everything was always where it needed to be in the house. They was just well put together. And when I was doing it, I was like, how?
Like, this is a whole lot. And my husband helps quite a bit, right? Um, it, it still was too much. And, and so, I think one of the Things that I've been able to give myself is some grace around knowing that my body doesn't always allow me to move that way. And that's okay. Um, and it's about having a better quality of life.
And so I'm really conscious that I can feel some type of way about it and it still be the best choice for me. And that's okay.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I feel like you're sharing my story this whole interview so [00:19:00] far. It's a lot of the same. Um, yeah, it's, it is hard. And I also, I guess I do, I always wonder like, what did those generations have that maybe we don't have?
I don't know if it's Uh, an increased pressure in, in our careers, or if it's even just intergenerational trauma, you know, they, they did it also gracefully, but what was stored in their body that was then passed down to us. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a lot of theories that go through my head. Do you have any
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: theories like that?
Definitely I feel all of that. And to that, to this day, my mom is fighting cancer in her body. And I wonder like what stress, um, played a part in, in those symptoms showing up in the way they did. So I totally understand. Like in my DNA, um, I gained like some good stuff, some resilience and some ability to navigate hard things.
But I also carry the heaviness too that, that [00:20:00] they all. have experienced and like I can look and see that there were some benefits for them in some ways around like their village that I might not necessarily have the same of but they did like laborist jobs where they were on their hands they used their hands their feet and it was taxing on the body like therapy is taxing but it's not labor intensive on my body in the same way and so there are some benefits that I get to choose.
What work looks like in ways that they didn't like, um, and so I'm conscious of that, but I know it's like inner layers of like positive things that I've gained and there's some things that are just difficult and that's just what it is, right? Um, but I'm grateful that I can talk to them openly and gain wisdom now and understanding what it would have been like to be a woman in their time.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Are there any messages that come to mind for you that you would want [00:21:00] to share with the audience? Like
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: one of the big things that I've gained is I need to be more honest with my kids about the hard parts. Right. Um, and don't paint this picture that it is. It's easier than it really is because I don't want my Children or my grandbabies now because I got two grandbaby girls like to grow up in a world where they see me be robotic and they think they must also be that way.
And so I'm challenging that as I'm learning and it's really interesting because like one of our older kids is like 22 now. Um, and she saw me in points where I thought that the best thing to show her. was strong strength, never bothered by things. And I have later in life realized that that's harmful.
And so she is learning and unlearning things that I unconsciously taught her. [00:22:00] And I'm being more open and showing her. Um, behind the scenes behind the closed door. This is what it looks like, right? And I want you to know that it's not perfect in here either. I'm just presenting to the world that I'm strong, but I want you to know that you, in order to be truly in a healthy way, strong, you need.
Weakness sometimes, too, and I can coexist. And so, like, I think the lesson that I share with your listeners is, um, we do the best we can. And as we gain more information, we should change. How we're navigating things and, and take ownership and accountability when we, um, do things to people or cause harm, even if it's harm we didn't expect to cause.
Because my mom didn't see it as harm when she didn't show me those pieces of herself. She thought she was doing the right thing. And so in return, I thought [00:23:00] that that was how I should navigate it too until I learned differently. And that's okay. Right.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big part of part of it is learning to take accountability.
Apologize. It doesn't mean you were maliciously intentionally trying to harm. Um, I think that's what stops sometimes stops people from apologizing. It's like, well, if I admit. That I was wrong. That means I was evil and bad. And it's like, no, we're, we all make mistakes and we repair them through proper apology and then changed behavior.
It's that simple, but that hard too. So hard. So, so hard. And when you don't grow up with, with like learning how to apologize, and that's not a part of your family culture, then it's, it's hard. How did you kind of learn? I mean, obviously. You know, you got into this field, right? So personal development and growth and flexible mindset, all of those things are important to you.
But I'm curious if you have, like, was it certain [00:24:00] experiences or was it just your desire to learn and grow? Like, what helped you learn how to embody apology and changed behavior?
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: I like this question because I think it's one of those questions where, like, I'm still part of the evolution and the journey around sitting in it sometimes because I think even recently, I think I apologize to my daughter, uh, because I wasn't hearing her at a space in time when she shared with me, Mom, I knew you were there for me, like, and you kept a roof over my head and you took care of me, but I needed you to be more present.
Right. And when she was saying it to me, I immediately was defensive. My response was like, I had to take care of you. Like, like, you don't understand. I was working these jobs so that you could have a nice childhood. And like, in order for you to do the things you enjoy, I had to work. Like, it was what I did.
And that response dismissed. What she [00:25:00] was trying to tell me, like she literally was just saying, mom, I see why you were doing it, but I needed you to do something different. And like, recently I heard. On a tick tock, a son talk about the same thing with his mother and it like turned on a light bulb for me and I was able to go back and recall that conversation and be like, I should have handled that differently.
It wasn't time for me to be defensive. It was time for me to really hear what she was saying to me. And. And then take accountability for not giving her that thing that she needed. And when I saw it, like the TikTok, I was crying like a baby. And then I responded to my daughter and I said, I finally get what you were saying to me.
Like, and it's taken a long time. And I share this example with you because it is a journey for me. I think part of it is understanding that the way that my mother, my grandmother navigated the world was in like a [00:26:00] survival place. And for most of my 20s, I had that same survival mentality where it was like, I need to be doing everything possible to make sure we eat, that we're safe, we have a nice home.
And then I was able to do that. I'm I'm check all those boxes and it took me a very long time to turn off survival mode and understand like the next space and time is like I can just be here I don't have to be fight flight or freeze all the time now I can just sit in this and so I've been afforded opportunity to sit In this world and be in this space without being in survival mode, and it's giving me space to reevaluate how I've shown up as a mother and as a human and be more accountable along the way, but I'm still like flawed and human.
And so, like, it's still work. To be done, but I am grateful like [00:27:00] that. I am in this world in a time where my mother and my grandmother's sacrifices have given me opportunity to just be. And I'm hopeful that my grandchildren will be afforded even more space to just be off the sacrifice of my life.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Absolutely. Yeah. The vulnerability, right? And sharing these stories is how we learn. It's how we teach others. It's not in like, Oh, I figured out this three step process to be better at apologizing. It's like, no, we just have to witness other people being vulnerable and apologizing. Sharing their stories, um, which we don't have.
We don't have those villages anymore. My, my husband likes to remind me that the villages were not perfect. He thinks I put it on a pedestal and I'm like, no, of course they weren't, but neither is what we're experiencing here. Yeah. I mean, even something as some, as, as. [00:28:00] Um, even something like giving birth is we would watch other women.
Husbands weren't even a part of the birthing experience. It was other women. And you saw this and then you learned and through seeing,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: um,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: everything emotional. Um, learning to be disciplined, learning to be a hard worker without going into survival mode. I mean, survival mode, I think gets turned on because we're all so alone on top of the trauma that happens in this world.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to be in a space where we can consider those things . Like, I was talking to my twin sister and I was saying like, I don't, I don't see a time where my mom or my grandmother could have sat down and talked about feelings and like how, how this generation is responding to how we are moving in the world.
They just didn't have space. And time to do that. And so, um, what a blessing [00:29:00] we have to be able to consider those layers to and hopefully improve like, um, the emotional capacity for others, knowing that we have opportunity to consider what that looks like based on choices we make.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah,
it reminds
me just of, you know, an oldie but a goodie, but Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
I mean, when you're in that basic when you're not your basic needs are not met. You don't, you don't have the space to be able to sit here and have these conversations.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: No, not at all.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: it's on the shoulders of our ancestors. Yeah, that space to do this.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Right. Yeah. And, you know, I think to like, I think it's just important.
I think the world happens in cycles, problems and trauma. You know, we can, it is our job and our role and our responsibility to make the world a better place. And hopefully we [00:30:00] always leave the world better than than the way it was when we came in. But. New traumas are going to happen in different parts of the world.
And then those traumas are going to cycle through and come to an end. And they might be in a better place where than where we are. And I think it's so important. Our pain works the same way, right? With flare ups and cycles. And you mentioned earlier, like the brain fog and the memory issues made you feel like.
Can I, can I do my job? Like I have to rely on my memory to be a good therapist. And, um, and that's one of the things that helps me stay in control of the fear that happens with my own symptoms. It's like, this comes in cycles. So my memory is lapsing today. I'm not recalling things, but this isn't like. Oh no, it's linearly going to go downhill from here.
This is turning into Alzheimer's. This is turning into, it doesn't happen. Like the fear doesn't happen like that anymore. It's like, okay, this is a day where it's bad and it's going to get good again. And then it's going to get bad again and good again. [00:31:00] Like it's going to cycle through. Yeah, yeah,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: I think what it has done in my life is it's giving me a different way of viewing, um, how other humans are navigating the world in real time because, um, before my symptoms, I didn't realize that, um, the ability to just move in the world without hurting and, and without, um, Difficulty recalling, uh, is one of those gifts that I didn't take, um, seriously until I started having problems with it.
And when others would tell me about it, because I have family members who, who struggle, like, I, I would empathize, but I had no real understanding. Of what it all meant until it happened to me. And so now that it has happened to me, I see people in a way that I didn't before. And it, it [00:32:00] provides a space of humility for me and, and being more honest about like the blessings that I get every morning that I just don't take seriously until they're not showing up in that same way.
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: It gives you, it's an interesting concept when you have to go through, go through something yourself to understand it because you wouldn't wish it upon anybody. And also we want to be understood and we want to be heard, but I wouldn't want you to go through what I'm going through. So it's an interesting
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: dynamic.
It is. It is. And it's also like sometimes challenging for me personally to explain and express to people I love like, uh, and I think I get offended a lot when it's like assumed like maybe I'm being lazy, or I'm being overly dramatic. And I'm like, no, like y'all just don't get it. Like you have to do get, feel it.
I think to really understand that. And so I sometimes struggle [00:33:00] with like how people are viewing me when I'm responding in real time to something that's happening to me.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: I think people's fear
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: of. Just, they can't touch, you know, touch that. Cause it's like, if I empathize with you, or I understand it puts me too close to feeling what that would be like if I were in those shoes and I can't, I can't go there.
It's not a conscious thought, but I think that that's kind of internally what, what
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: happens. Mm hmm. And people tend to want to tell you things that help you feel better and sometimes like I don't need that. Like, don't tell me it's gonna get better. Um, I don't want to hear that right now. Like I'm like hurting right now.
So just say I'm, I see that this is hard for you. I can't even imagine what that feels like. That's what I want you to say to me. Not that it's going to get better. Like, let me feel how I feel about it right now. Yes. And I'll come back around to that eventually, but I ain't there right now. And that's okay.
That's okay.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. [00:34:00] Finding people who can really be in it with you. Um, it's like, you mentioned that earlier and that's really, it's really difficult. I think too, I talk a lot about, you know, finding support and community. It's so important, I think, to have both where you have people who, when I, when I encourage clients to reach out for support, it doesn't always mean just when you're in the thick of crying and feeling depressed and feeling, you know, hopeless and in despair.
It is great. When we have those people we can, we can reach out to in those moments, but it also means looking for the people who will just go on a walk with you or like just eat lunch with you and like consistently having those healthy social interactions where it has nothing to do with your pain and, and you venting and, and talking about it.
And it's just more about you connecting with the person in front of you. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Yeah, we definitely need those moments where they're just like regular, like I can be in this space and it just [00:35:00] be about enjoying a meal, enjoying time with a friend, like definitely it's important.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. But
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: when you
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: find someone who gets it, that is a gold, a gold, it's a gold star.
You don't let go. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. We do. Yeah. What else comes up around your story that feels like, um, lessons learned or, um, You know, you mentioned, you mentioned being open to talking about a child with, with mental illness. So whatever feels comfortable for you, um, and respect, you know, respects them as well.
But what, yeah, what, what has that been like in addition to living with your own pain? Well,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: um, my daughter's struggle, I think her struggle starts around 10, when she's about 10 years old. At that time, I was a high school teacher, um, for some backstory, for context. The first 10 years, she was like the perfect kid.
Very [00:36:00] smart, very social, people enjoyed being around her. Very respectful. Um, and I had her when I was 17. I got pregnant, I think, when I was 16. And so I was a young mother. And I didn't know what I was doing. Like, I was just like, okay, we just gonna do this thing called, called mothering and figure it out.
And early on, she was such a good kid that everybody was like, how, how do you raise a child? So. And like, I think in, in my like ego space, I was like, yeah, I'm doing that. Right. I raised her to be this way. I didn't know why she was that way. I was just trying to learn how to be her mama, but because she was so good, I think I thought that the way I was parenting her was one of the reasons why.
And so it was a light bulb that kind of went off when she was around 10. And at first I thought it was like a hormonal thing. Um, And she just overnight was a different person. Like it was like aggressive [00:37:00] behaviors, like acting out behaviors, like really night and day. And I was. Taken back because I didn't understand what this was.
I later learned that her father, um, had the same diagnosis. It was hereditary. Um, he didn't know what it was. I thought when he was acting out, he just, that was his personality. Like he would just be extra sometime. And I didn't learn later that that was actually his, his condition and that she had it too.
Um, so for many years I was learning everything I needed to learn to help my baby. Like I, I will. was still in the classroom. Um, but I started learning about mental health and being interested in helping out in like the special education classrooms because I noticed that there were people challenged.
There were young people that were having similar challenges. And as I was learning more, I wanted to be in spaces and be supportive of them. Um, and during these years, I was [00:38:00] like, I think like, Instead of being a teacher, I should do something in mental health. And so I transitioned out of the classroom, did a lot of community mental health work.
Um, as my daughter was doing better, people were like, what are you doing? Like, I'm noticing that there's a change again. And so I would share what I was learning with other families, um, and just supporting people in that way. And during this time, while I was helping out in my community, I was like, I should be a therapist.
I think that this is in my wheelhouse. And so I went back and got my master's degree to become a therapist. And in that time, she has now grown up. She's a grown woman. She's the one that has my two grand babies. She's doing really, really well. And I think, um, my. Clinical background, my professional background has helped me to improve my relationship with her.
Uh, but it's also given me more meaning on the journey. And I think, like, [00:39:00] um, God, like, throws things, like, in the path. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, this wellness idea, this wellness center came. to me before I was even licensed. And I didn't understand it, but it was like, I envisioned a holistic center where you can go in and learn about how to eat well, sound, um, healing, uh, yoga, meditation, like a garden in the back.
To help like grow natural food, like it's this beautiful place where you go and you take care of yourself. And I saw this vision prior to me being sick, prior to me being licensed, but along this journey, like I've realized like, People who are struggling with like autoimmune diseases could really benefit from that.
And so I was like, I think I'm supposed to make it for them and everybody else can come. But the specific focus will be to help people like me. Like when I [00:40:00] learned about. What fibromyalgia was, it was like not a lot of good resources to help make it clear, like these are all the ways to address symptoms to bring health and to help to calm down some of the pain and the difficulty sleeping.
And so now that I'm learning and I'm doing these things like I want it all under one roof and I think my whole life journey has led me to that. long goal for myself, um, in really indirect ways, but it was purposeful. Like I needed to be a teacher because I teach quite a bit still, but I'm not a teacher.
And I also needed to understand mental health. Not just for my baby, but to understand how to help others. And now that I'm experiencing this thing in my body, it's also giving me an opportunity and space to feel like, how can I help someone similar to me [00:41:00] that might be having the same struggle? And so I hope I answered your question, but yeah.
Yeah, the life journey.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, yeah. And I think we are moving more and more towards kind of these holistic, um, everything under one roof kind of places because for so long we've been so specialized and, and like there's the heart doctor and then there's the leg doctor and it's like the leg and the heart are connected.
Like we. They're not separate really. Um, specialties are amazing. And I say like, I specialize in chronic illness as a mental health therapist, but it's still holistic. It's still, like you said, it's, it's everything that, um, encompasses our life. So relationships and I don't teach a diet or anything, but like eating well, that in a way that suits you and movement and, um, You know, your work life, your finances, all of that, I'm curious if for you, I know for me, like my pain [00:42:00] tends to get, I tend, I'm able to have more compassion and more like empathy and, and even sometimes just less pain just from knowing so much about how the body works.
I'm wondering if. You had mentioned something with your journey with your daughter and she started kind of to get better and if it was really a lot of just you being able to validate once you were learning about how the brain worked.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Yeah, I think that was a big piece of it. And what I gained mostly from like all of this like learning is that we all are different humans we live in a world where we.
Want to make everyone squares, and everyone is in a square like I'm a star, not a square, my daughter might be a circle and that's okay. And so me understanding that like deeply, and then translating it to others that it's okay that you see the world differently, that you navigate feeling differently. I care less [00:43:00] about the title, and more about what do we do now that we have this information, and, and then To normalize that, like, all these things are just things.
They, they don't necessarily have to ruin our lives. We just need to be clear, like, this is what it is and these are things that help us. And, and so I walk and live in the world that way. I try to really normalize things for everyone, no matter what the thing is.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, I really, yeah, just being someone else's community and walking, walking alongside, um, with knowledge and with wisdom, which comes as we age, but yeah.
It's important to have people who can walk with us. It's, it's not about, again, the, like, three step process to trauma healing. There's a lot of that online right now.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Or a TikTok where you just watch this video and you won't have anxiety anymore. I'm like, okay,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: good [00:44:00] luck. And like, yeah, it can be frustrating.
Sometimes you'll hear, I'll read the comments on these videos and it's like, I learned more in this. 30 second clip that my therapist ever taught me. And I'm like, okay, maybe you had a bad therapist, maybe, but also sometimes it's kind of like you said, this, that one tick tock helped put into perspective something for you.
It's something you had already been learning about and already moving through. And then somebody said a sound byte that. Everything you learned already clicked, and if you hadn't been doing all that work already that 30 second video was not going to just change your life. Nope. It's all of it together. Um,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, yeah.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: And it's generational work, like I do a lot of couples work now, and like, I truly believe that if I can help a couple become healthy, I help change generations. Because then they model that to their kids who model it to their kids and it's generational like just being [00:45:00] able to demonstrate how to be a better mother or better wife helps my family and helps generations.
And so it's necessary work. Yeah,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: it's interesting. Just kind of thinking about sometimes like therapists who work with kids are like, I can't handle the parents. So I work with kids and it's like, well, that's, I
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: don't know how that's going to work.
Yeah. Yeah. We got to help the whole family. Like I get it. I get it. Family systems always like there's not there's typically never just one person like the whole family has to adjust. How they're navigating in the system for that to it's heavy work, though, like I used to love saucy teenagers. They were my favorite.
But like, I would have a hard time like trying to get their parents to know that you have to change some things too. And like, I need you to come on up in these sessions. And we work on how you both communicate and manage conflict because [00:46:00] then that helps. Her differently. And so it is heavy lifting to take on that child and the whole family, but it's so necessary.
Totally.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, it is. It's really hard work, which brings me back to kind of that idea of community and doing that work as therapists, really not even trying to do that solo, like having a team where you work as a family clinic. I wonder, I, I don't know of any, and in my area, do you know of any in your area?
I
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: don't, but it's, or in work, like, I noticed, like, even in my own family, like, if I just took one of the kids to therapy, no, we all needed to be knowing how to navigate this and deal with, like, our own stuff. That can cause things to feel and be the way it is. So, yeah, I don't know any companies that are doing it, but it would be really beneficial.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yes, last year I tried to do a group, like a group, [00:47:00] um, over the summer where it was going to be eight group therapy sessions for the teens and four for the parents, all with, um, teens who had chronic illnesses. And I had some parents interested, but man, trying to get groups together and like everyone to commit.
And to pay and to meet at the same time and to attend every set. It's like really, really hard. So that's why that didn't happen. But I think I'm going to try again this summer with my APC, who loves working with, with teens and I love working with parents. So I think that might be a good, a good team.
We'll see if it goes through.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Yeah. Yeah. I'm loving that. Definitely. Isn't it? There's so many families that can benefit from that.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, you're right though. It's so important that everyone's just on board and it's not that everyone has to even agree with everything that's being said in therapy, but everyone needs to have that same kind of foundational knowledge.
So we have this kind of working, you know, um, this kind of foundation of like, okay, I at least know what, what, what you're working with [00:48:00] here. Um, even if I don't quite agree.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think some of the big challenges is we're still like pushing against stigmas too and what therapy is. I, I noticed like many, many times I'm educating people on what therapy actually even is.
Um, because many people seem to still think you have to be quote unquote crazy. And that is not what therapy is. Like, um, it is beneficial. I would say everyone needs a therapist. Like, there's opportunity for us all to do better in being more self aware about how we show up in the world and help to improve skills that we struggle with because we all have something.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. I, I have been lately finding myself also, especially with the economy and money. Right. I'm a private pay practice. And so, um, and I, I pay my own therapist out of pocket. Um, I don't use insurance. And so [00:49:00] the, you know, money is, is also a big part of all of us and how we spend our money. And, but I like in therapy to.
It's this, yes, it's a paid relationship, but it's, it's a really, it's a mentorship relationship. Um, it, it's, it's one where somebody is walking besides you, beside you. And they, yes, they have skills and knowledge that you might not have, but they're not the expert in like what you should do with your life.
They're just sharing with you and you're sharing with them. And that relationship is what. What helps you grow and develop emotionally. Um,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: but
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah, I think one, there's the stigma of you have to be crazy to be in therapy, but then I think even when you can get past that, it also feels like therapy is this place where they're supposed to give me the answers.
Yeah,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: yeah. And I, I quickly say you will not gain codependency with Danielle. Like, the intention is for me to get you less to be in a space where you're out in the [00:50:00] world and you're thinking, what would Danielle do? Cause if you're doing that, you're still not where I need you to be. I need you to be in the moment thinking about, Hmm, what should I do?
So I can go back and tell Danielle what I Decided to do, and we could have that choice. And I said, if your brain of thoughts aren't going that way, then I'm doing you a disservice because I'm saying to you that you don't have capacity to make good choices for yourself. And I believe we all get to make choices for ourselves, right?
So you don't need me to do that part for you. You just need me to be sitting and showing you what I see as you're making choices so that you can assure that those are the choices that are. the best for you in this moment, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To clarify. No, just say therapy shouldn't be where someone is telling you how to live and think.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: No, absolutely not. Yeah. And just to kind of add to that, I do have clients who are like, I thought about what you said, and that is totally fine. It's, you know, you can, you can bring me with you and in [00:51:00] your mind and in your week to week life, but, um, it shouldn't be from a place of like, I need to make destiny proud or I need to like do right by her.
It's like, no, Hopefully you do hear some of the things that I've said and that grounds you and centers you and then you, you internalize that for yourself and you keep on walking towards what's right for you. Yeah, yeah,
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: that's
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: what it is. Is there anything else we haven't touched on today that feels important to you that you wanted to share or talk about?
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: I just want to encourage your listeners to get comfortable with doing their own work, whatever that looks like, and, and give themselves grace. Like it's really important in this life journey to understand that we do the best we can with what we have, and when we gain more information, we get to make different choices.
And it's not beneficial to sit And what you would have should have could have done. It's better to just understand that this is where I am now. And my next choice will be my best [00:52:00] choice. And so that's what I'd like to add and share with your listeners.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I love that. Thanks for sharing that.
Danielle L. McDowell, MS, LPC: All right. Take care.
Listen to Danielle’s interview with me, Destiny, on Ep 89: Finding Purpose Through Pain - A Therapist's Journey with Chronic Illness
Danielle Boose-McDowell, LPC is a self-described “Warrior ”, who shares her experiences from being broken and confused to a Licensed Professional Counselor, Virginia Board of Counseling Approved Supervisor, advocate, best-selling author, and speaker. A former high school teacher and mental health professional, Danielle channeled her passion for empowering others through coaching and counseling them to identify their assets and uncover their inner warrior mindset.
Connect with Danielle:
Meet Destiny - The host of The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast and a licensed mental health therapist in the states of Georgia and Florida. Destiny offers traditional 50-minute therapy sessions as well as therapy intensives and monthly online workshops for the chronic illness community.