Healing Beyond Pain: Partnering with Our Bodies on this Journey
Transcending Patterns
It refers to the transformation of our relationship with our bodies, particularly when dealing with chronic illness, trauma, or discomfort.
Joy's introspection invites us to reconsider the language of our bodily experiences. By shifting from adversarial patterns to collaborative ones, we recognize our bodies as allies working in tandem with us, even in the face of pain and discomfort.
Shifting the Nervous System Response
People might feel the need to fight or resist their bodies, viewing pain or discomfort as something to be conquered or eliminated. This can lead to a cycle of frustration and struggle.
The journey of allyship begins with a compassionate acknowledgment of our body's responses. The fears that releasing the fight against our bodies will lead to a collapse of the structures we've carefully constructed.
The Fear of Letting Go
Despite pain and discomfort, our bodies work tirelessly to protect, heal, and adapt. Embracing this perspective enables us to approach our bodies with trust, gratitude, and a willingness to work together toward greater well-being.
In a society that often touts the virtues of control, Joy encourages us to explore a different narrative. By understanding the ways societal expectations and our nervous system interact, we can uncover a newfound sense of agency within our body's responses.
Navigating Activation
Joy delves into the realm of proactive preparation, offering insights into engaging with healthcare providers to gain a clearer understanding of upcoming procedures. Whether through direct inquiries or a paced walkthrough, taking charge of the conversation can alleviate apprehension and uncertainty. By acknowledging historical bodily responses and seeking ways to ease tension, we empower ourselves to create an environment conducive to our well-being.
Instead of fighting against the body, we seek to collaborate with it. This might involve exploring holistic approaches to healing, making informed decisions about medical treatments, and finding ways to support the body's natural processes.
Nurturing Trust in the Medical Journey
Joy sheds light on the intricate connection between past experiences, body memory, and pain perception. Joy emphasizes the paramount importance of creating spaces of felt safety. By validating and honoring each individual's experience, we can foster an environment where healing and trust can flourish. By maintaining an open heart and practicing introspection, caregivers can be crucial in supporting those navigating chronic struggles.
Conclusion
As we bring our insightful conversation with Joy Johnson LCSW to a close, we find ourselves enriched with a deeper understanding of the intricate relationship between our bodies, our experiences, and our quest for healing. We've explored the nuanced path of reclaiming trust in our bodies—a path that is far from linear, often demanding patience, introspection, and empathy. Let us approach our bodies as allies, listening to their wisdom, and granting ourselves the compassion we truly deserve. Together, as we continue to explore, learn, and grow, we can pave the way for a more harmonious relationship with our bodies and embark on a profound healing journey.
Disclaimer: Everything we discuss here is just meant to be general education and information. It's not intended as personal mental health or medical advice. If you have any questions related to your unique circumstances, please contact a licensed therapist or medical professional in your state of residence.
Destiny Davis, LPC CRC, is solely responsible for the content of this article. The views expressed herein may or may not necessarily reflect the opinions of the guest.
The content in this blog post comes directly from a real, human interview between Destiny and her guest on The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast. This written version was formatted using AI. Listen to the full episode to hear the actual conversation.
Listen to my full conversation with Joy Johnson on Ep 8: Your Body As Your Ally, Not Your Enemy with Joy Johnson LCSW
-
Episode transcribed with AI and may contain errors that are not representative of the actual word or meaning of the sentence.
Maybe we can just start with what it means to you to be an ally and your body or with your body. How would you phrase it?
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a big question. Right? And I think it's it's something that I've been navigating for years. Cause I think for those of us with.
Especially with chronic illness or trauma in our body, or, I mean, there are so many reasons to not, you know, that we've been conditioned to not be an ally with our body you know, body expectations and our culture you know, racial oppression, all of these things can, can contribute to it. So there's a lot there for people.
So it's not a simple, you know, I want to be clear. It's not like a simple. The thing just become an alleyway. It's definitely a lot of, you know, a lot of processing, a lot of work, a lot of nuance and it's different for everyone. But something kind of, I, when I was thinking about this is, you know, the fight or flight response and how for so many years, for me, you know, I'll speak a little bit from my experience.
It felt like the thing that I needed to fight or flee with my body. Or leave through freezing. Right. Kind of dissociate from the pain in my body or you know, feeling like my body was always just like doing something wrong right. Or working with me. And I started, you know, when I was thinking about verbalizing, this was like, well, what is.
What if I was, you know, fighting alongside my body, what if I was like wheezing? You know, whatever it is like with my body that my body is like, it it's working for me. I, the pain or the, you know, whatever is coming up in it, you know, intense emotions, whatever I'm, I'm noticing that I'm frustrated with.
The more and more. Look at the new trauma research. And do you know this, the magic work that helped peel trauma in the body? I had just realizing like, oh, this is just my bias. I need way. Or, you know, all of our body's way of like trying to protect us. It's trying to give us some information about what's going on of trying to, you know, work through Like, Hey, yeah, I'm in a lot of pain, so like it, you know, the adrenaline will kick in and, and that then ends up like making me tired long-term so really it's like, you know, my body is working for me the best that it can.
And what if I noticed it in that way versus like, like my body's just always, like, my body's just always broken. Right. That's kind of how I, how I felt for him. So many years. Um, and so that's maybe like the quickest simplest way. It's like, what if this reaction? I think for a long time it felt like my only resource was to fight my body.
I, yeah. Yeah. And, or to like, be frustrated with it or to be just like, if I could just get a new body, I've had that phone many, many times in my life and I think really noting, so something actually that happened recently I have like a lot of joint issues and joint pain and it, the pain has been pretty well-managed recently, like past few months I've gotten there.
But I sprained my ankle recently and then I kind of retweaked it and I realized at some point when I talked to my physical therapist, like my left hip was suddenly like flaring up again. I was like, oh, that's weird. Like, I don't know where that is. And then we were like, oh, that's the thing. Leg that you're like we're ankles tweets.
And my body's probably like, like we don't know, but like I started to see it like this meaning to it instead of, oh my God. My hip is just like, it's working against me again. I was like, oh, what if my hip is just, it's tightening up because it's trying to protect my ankle. And that's like the best thing it's got right now.
And that even alone, like, Ooh, you know, like my body was like, oh, like maybe. Maybe that's all it is. They just gotta let my ankle heal and care for that and know that my hip is doing the best they can. Yeah. And that was an example that just really stood out to me of, of a time where I could have, and my first reaction was to be like, you know, this damn hip, like what, why are you doing this to me?
I'm finally got, got this figured out. And then just noting, like, okay, this doesn't mean like my body's like. You know, totally broken again. It doesn't mean like I have to be, you know, fighting it. Maybe it can just mean like, oh, my body is reacting to something that's happening in it. And I'm like, what can I do to like, continue to support like all the parts of my body.
I can see how from
like a cognitive behavioral framework of like thought change, somebody might try to get to that place, but can you maybe talk a little bit about like my thought change? Isn't exactly how you got there and what did help you get there?
Yes. Yeah. That's a really good point because I think yeah, I'm with you, like.
I think we've many of us have been like, just don't be stressed anymore. Just think happy thoughts. Right. And not that doesn't work. I tried that for a long time, too. And how I got there that's it's yeah, it feels, it feels really nuanced again, like all this says I mean, for me, the biggest thing that I did personally was you know, the a therapist.
That's the medic experiencing work and that's work that I've been training in. And part of that is like shifting. Yeah. It's not shifting the thoughts first necessarily. It's like shifting the nervous system response, right. Or at least giving my nervous system a different pathway. So before my only pathway, you know, in this example would have been.
All right. Time to fight. Like my hip is messing up. The rest of my body has got to be like against this hip. Right. Or I've got to fight it. I've got to like figure this out and and be exhausted and like be angry with my body again, like that's all I have. That's like the only way to like protect myself and figure out.
How to, you know, how to make this go away. If I could or often I couldn't, you know, we have chronic pain or chronic illness. We've tried everything and we can't get it to go away. And so I think the work that I've been doing and that I, you know, really encourage encourage clients with is start to notice more about what's happening.
Like sensation wise or in the body, like, as I'm feeling like angry and fighting my body, what does that do? Like for me that like the rest of my body then tenses up. Right. And, um, I kind of go into my body, goes into this fight response. Right. And fighting against not only like a fight response where there's a threat in front of me and that's super helpful, but a fight response that then Cycles back, into fighting my body.
Yeah. And it just exacerbates everything for me. And again, it's like the only, it's not, it wasn't my fault. It's like the only pathway my body knew for years and years. Cause that was all I was given for those of us illness or issue since we were children, you know, we're, that's where we learn how to respond to this and then even more hardwired.
For, for those of us that, that learned that early on. So really it's like noticing and really starting to understand and like, I mean, that's the first step to ally and when my body right, is saying like, this isn't my fault. Like I'm frustrated by this response that I'm having, but it's also like, it doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
It doesn't mean I'm, it's my fault that I have chronic pain. It doesn't mean that I'm doing everything wrong. It just means like, this is my body's current tool, my bodies for resource, for navigating this pain. And it worked for a long time. Right. It, it worked to a certain extent for me for a long time.
And it's, I'm just re I'm starting to realize it's not working for me in the way that I need anymore.
I think you said the first step
is that awareness, because I think a lot of people think. If I am aware of the fact that it's not my fault. If I kind of accept that, then I'm going to get stuck there and I'm not going to do anything anymore.
I'm going to, I'm going to stop fighting, which has been my protective mechanism since I was a kid. And then that means like my whole life, what I have fought so far, so far so hard to maintain will
just collapse. So we stay stuck there.
Yeah. I really resonate with that. Cause that that's a dry eye.
Hold with that. And that's where stay in that fight of like, well, I can't let go because then everything will fall apart or I'll just accept this. And never like, I'll never get better. I'll never do the things I want to do in my life because this will hold me back. Right. Forever. If it's, you know, it's not my fault, if there's, cause I think accepting that the, for some people, the fear is there, then there's nothing I can do about it.
Right. We kind of beat ourselves up and make everything our fault. And because it feels like there's some control in that. Yeah. Yeah, it does.
Exactly. It
feels like there's control.
It's like, there's all these things wrong with me then maybe I can fix it. Right.
Whereas if it's like, societaly yeah.
Decidedly the way. And it's still decidedly, I think with our nervous system having like limited resources. Right. Cause you know, especially the nomadic experiencing approach, they teach a lot about, you know, we look, they look a lot at like, Animals in the wild to kind of note how their nervous systems manage traumatic experiences.
Cause they're having them all the time. Right. But they don't necessarily exhibit PTSD or trauma responses the way that we do. And, but then if you look at the medicated animals, they do like, you know, I just put, we just had to put our cat on an antidepressant. Like, you know, I think there's some, there's wonderful things about our modern society and obviously.
For chronic illness and medical needs. Like, there's a lot of great things about that that have allowed us to live, you know, longer fuller life, but there's also kind of a limit on, or like certain expectations for how we respond to things and how our body responds to things which often keeps like that's where.
My body's gotta be a good patient. Right. I've got to like, keep this in. I can't scream at the doctor. Like then I'm going to be, they're going to think I'm a crazy person, right. Or I can't, you know, I can't shit like our bodies will, you know, a common responses to sh to shake right after something really difficult or potentially traumatic and oh, On people keep their bodies from, from doing that.
And you know, like as a, as a child, like when I was really young, I would, I would scream and I would fight, but I was clearly, I learned very quickly that that wasn't going to get me the support that I actually wanted and needed. And so I stopped. I like went in the opposite direction. Right. And I would just like tense up my body, be a good patient, you know, not ask for anything really that I needed to make me come from.
Just an example, like there's so many ways that this can happen in our body, but that's an example where I was doing what works in a lot of ways, because if I screamed and kicked and whatever, like what my body actually wanted to do, when these things were happening to it it like, I, I wouldn't have been treated well.
Right. I've been treated like a problem. Yeah, oppositional defiant should not need me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For like, you know, something that would be really natural. Like I remember someone, you know, I was starting to re-experience when I was working my therapist, a lot of feelings in my body yet, like going to the dentist, I had all the, had to have all these like, like kind of more intensive dental.
And she made the point, like dentistry work is actually can be like really triggering because like your normal response to someone sticking something in your mouth is to pull away and we have to like override that response to go to the dentist. Right, right. It's why, and it probably has a lot to do with why so many people understandably have a fear of the dentist.
Um, and I think that's true with any kind of. Medical procedure. I think that's where chronic pain gets really complicated because it's like, there's this pain happening in my body. Like how, like, and I can't see it. Right. I can't get away from it. Um, but that happens like all kinds of medical procedures.
Like we've kind of normalized, but it's like something's happening to our body that our body's response would be to get the hell out of here. Yeah. Right. Or to fight. And we have to like that surging through our body and we have to like, turn it off. Yeah. Like, or we have to like, hold that in. We can't really turn it off.
We have to hold it in. Right. And that a lot of us can lead to the like, oh, I've got to fight my body. Right. I've got to keep it in. I've got to like, if I want to get what I need from these people around me, um, These medical professionals, family members, whoever, like, I, I can't actually, it feels like I can't react this way.
Yeah. I've got to keep it in. Have you found, I know that this. It's not as simple, simple
question, but have you found anything that helps you navigate some of these appointments? Obviously
we still can't kick and scream when we're in the doctor's office, even though that's probably what our body wants a lot of the times, but yeah.
Have you, what have you found
at least helps you get through and then are there things you do
after or before as well? Oh, that's a beautiful question. One thing that you can do, if, if you can and what, you know, depending on what's going on is keep your joints moving or whatever joint can move.
So like, you know, at the dentist that would keep my wrist moving, kind of moving my arms around, maybe move my ankles. You'll you might get questions about it. So sometimes also, and this is like the, the other piece of that is to like, really think about. What you need. So a big thing is, you know, to get as much information upfront as you can about a procedure or an appointment, obviously again, sometimes that's limited.
But maybe if you can't get it beforehand yeah, one day you could call the office and just kind of have some questions. If you can't do that, if you don't do that, you could be like, really ask the doctor or whoever to slow down and walk you through. Okay, what's going to happen next and then what's going to happen next.
And start to think about too. Like what, what do I need to feel the most comfortable? You know, I think for me, I lot, for a long time, I would just like, my body would tense up. I remember being like, from like, I don't know, early elementary school to probably early high school. I had braces and go, go to the orthodontic.
I keep my mouth open as wide as I could, and like, try not to ever close it, try not to swallow as little as possible. And now I really try to be, cause that that response still kicks up in me at the dentist or at any kind of doctor procedure or medical procedure. And so I really try to be knowledge, you know, aware, aware of that happening and then be like, what actually, like, is there anything my body.
If it felt like it could, would do or ask for. And so even if you're not there where you can ask for, cause it's really hard to advocate in those situations that we don't feel like we have we're already. A little bit, like I'm ready a little bit. I don't know. Anxious is quite the right word, but like we're already a little activated if you will, by what what's going to happen.
Right. So I acknowledge it's really hard. But yeah, thinking about if, if I could maybe just start with, like, if I could ask for something more or if I could move my body or readjust in some way, what would I ask or what would I want to do? It sounds so simple. Yeah, it sounds so simple. But yeah,
I I'm thinking even recently I brought my daughter to get her lip tie cut and walk.
Like I had no idea.
People say, you know, you can use scissors
or laser instill. And like, how does that even, like, how does that work? I'm so confused about it. And it's like, if I had, so I went to the dentist and, um, that, that did it. And I actually decided I got a lot of information about like, What types of procedures.
And, and then I got a lot of information about the dentist and that, through that process of just
slowing
down, even though I still didn't know exactly what it was going to look like, it really did help me just have faith and trust that when I walk in here, it's not going to be, it may be uncomfortable.
It may hurt her. And it did. She cried. I didn't like that, but
I knew, I knew that my being calm
about it was going to be, make her calm about it after the fact. So. Then I could just hold her and comfort her and love her through it.
Um, but yeah,
slowing down and getting that information was really helpful.
And I would not have done that like even
probably a year or two ago. Right. Yeah. We don't feel like, and the thing is that should be, you know, for me, I really think systemically that should be a norm, but it's not, we've really normalized. These procedures happen, doctors know what they're doing and you show up and you let it happen.
And I think we like it's okay to rewrite that or rewrite that for yourself and say, no, I really need, you know, I think about, as a child, I had a lot of surgical procedures and I don't know what happened to me at all. I mean, now I do, because I, I have learned more about just like the things that happen almost in every surgery when you're put under anesthesia, but.
Now kind of really thinking about like, oh, all of these things happen to my body that I wasn't aware of that obviously when I was really young, I couldn't have known, but as a teenager, no one told, you know what? I had surgeries again. No one told me about these things that would happen to my body. When I, when my body is like put under, they think like, oh, that just doesn't affect you, but that's just not true.
Like it, your body can still have a response to that. Yeah. And the other thing that was coming up for me with talking about, you know, talking about your baby is like that pain is, it happens it's normal in life. We can't fully avoid it emotionally, physically. Like at some point we're going to feel pain and that's not always bad, but you know, for me, like pain in my body has always been associated with like, here we go.
Like, this is about to be really bad. This is about to mean something. Really intense for me, like a surgery or, you know, a month long flare up or, you know, that's kind of something in my nervous, nervous system that I'm trying to re rewrite of it or see like, oh, there might be something different. The pain actually might be temporary or there might be things that I can do or support that I can get after this before, during, after that.
Help me navigate this pain. So it isn't all like this horrible, bad thing, like, you know, baby babies, knee procedures, sometimes to help to help, you know, their health long-term. We need procedures, you know, we'd go to the dentist to keep our teeth and keep eating. Like, there's really good reasons for those things.
And so I think too, for me, starting through. No, both like work with my nervous system to give it, to help it, see that there might be another path. There might be another way that this goes, right. It might just be temporary pain. And that that's sometimes that's okay. Right. That's, that's normal. Like, you know kids, skin, their knees all the time because they're being kids and playing and having a good time.
And like sometimes we fall and we get back up. And so I think both of those things, like really starting to. Let yourself know that you can advocate for yourself and you can, you know, if you don't even know what that looks like, just what, what would it look like if I could in this moment, even though I'm not ready for you.
Yeah. That curiosity.
Ellie's just, if you can just be curious in the moment, you may not
have the answer. I think
that's where people get stuck too, is because if we're we're taught, like if you don't know the answer, it's because you didn't work hard enough to figure it out. And sometimes we just have to sit and curiosity and know there's literally no way that I can know the answer right now, but I still have to sit here and think about it.
That's how I'm going to get there.
Yeah. It's a hard place to be in. It is really hard. And that's again, that's where I think the nervous system side comes in is like, we've got to find ways to make space for our nervous system to feel like it can get there. For me, that was being a therapist. Obviously I'm biased, I've recommended.
I would recommend, you know, if people have the access to it, that they, that they see someone who really understands chronic pain chronic illness, or is if you feel like you have trauma, it's trauma informed. Really I think every like every, you know, person and healthcare should be trauma informed in some way, because, because it's so important and it can help us, even if we don't identify with, with trauma, just this idea of finding felt safety for yourself.
And yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I was going to say, can you, can
you define, felt safety and also maybe even define trauma and how you're looking at it because yeah. A lot of people just don't resonate with the term at all and don't realize that they've experienced
it. Yeah. So I think I'm going to like write this down from my brain.
So trauma, there are lots of ways to think of it. I think when people, most people hear trauma, they think like PTSD from being a veteran, you know, in war for like some kind of abuse that's happened to them that they have trauma from, or this happened to someone. But it can trauma really, especially if we look at how kind of, some of the sematic research is starting to define it is like you, we can have an event that happens through that.
Quote, unquote, traumatic, like you meet you and I could have the same event happened to us and it's very intense. It's very potentially traumatic, but one of us might leave with some post-traumatic stress in our body or some kind of trauma response in our body. And one of us may not. We may walk out of there and you know, it's over.
I feel safe. My body feels safe. It can get back to this grounded place. That happened. And now it's over. I was able to do my body was able to do what it needed in that situation was able to flee. It was able to fight. It was able to get the support it needed. If it couldn't do those things in the moment I was able to get that support eventually.
Um, But there are, you know, there are other circumstances and it, and it both is based both on just the circumstances and what you were able, how you were able to respond and also how your nervous system has already been wired. Right. That something might happen again. Same thing might happen to me. And I, I walk out and I, my body like that trauma kind of gets stuck in the body.
If you will. It's like my body can't fully process that it ends. It's
still not fight or flight. Like maybe I can see that I'm out of that situation, but who knows when it's going to happen again? So let me keep this
exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like your buying. I mean, again, it's not like you're con you might not constantly, even, you know, there are some people that, like, they have really clear trauma symptoms.
Like they have flashbacks and they feel like they're constantly on edge and it can, it, it can also be more. Right. Um, the, in mind, a lot of it was perfectionism. Like, I've gotta be perfect. I've gotta be ready. Right. And I do have to be prepared for something bad to happen again. Um, and so that's a little more subtle, like I don't think, especially back, you know, in the early two thousands or nineties, early two thousands, people would have identified that as a trauma response, but it's, it's, the research is really shifting.
And the more work that I do with the more, at the very least, there's like a. A pattern that our body learns, right? Like that's kind of what I'm working with folks on. It might be from just the way your family process things that I be from yeah. A certain, a certain situation that happened to you where you valued it.
And like it could respond in the way it needed. And so that response is kind of happening over and over again in different ways. Which again it's not your fault. It's just the way that your body. Process and, or didn't feeling like it can process in a way that it, it needed. And so, yeah, it's always prepared for it to happen again.
Yeah.
Breaking that pattern, that nervous system pattern that we're not even really aware of. Cause a lot of people, I think also get a little confused or frustrated
with, um,
when we're not talking about the problem, if we're just trying to feel it, like, what do we do with that? Well, we're learning. This, that there's more than
one way to feel about this.
Yeah. Yeah. There are lots of ways yeah. To feel about it. And I think that's where felt safety comes in is you might rationally be saying like, there's probably a lot of people around you saying, like they're saying, you're fine. Again, like I had so many doctors. Yeah. That's a fact I'm stressed. Just stop being stressed and yeah.
It's like, How do I just stop being stressed? Like if I could do that, I wouldn't be here. Right. I wouldn't be in this situation if I could like just, you know, will myself to not be stressed. Yeah. Um, because my body could not, hadn't found, felt safety yet and you know, that's something I'm still working on.
And so, you know, one really great exercise you can, you can try on your own is even just noticing. Not, you know, you may not have full safety anywhere in your body, but is there one place that feels a little more safe, a little less activated? Is there a place in your life that feels a little more safe?
You know, that feels a little more like, oh, I can, maybe I can take a deep breath here. Right? This is a place where I can, even if it's, I'm not fully relaxed or fully fully grounded or fully safe, I can. Fine. Like 5% more. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a start and it feels, as I'm saying, it feels like a thought exercise and it, to me, it's all connected, like the brain and body.
The art it's all the brain is in our body. Right. And all these chemicals and reactions and our nervous system, it's all very connected. We have the vagus nerve that goes, you know, from, from our brain all the way down, you know, our spine to our gut and our gut and our brain is super connected by that. And so I, you know, I won't get into like all the science on that.
And also I'm not an expert in the biggest nerd, but I know that, that I, I really find it helpful. To think about, to learn more about how the nervous system works and how the brain and body are connected. Cause I think a big part of our modern society is we've really like detached the brain and the body.
And despite the fact that they're all they're all together they can't live without each other. We've kind of acted like they're really separate, but they're not. So it is in some ways it's the thought exercise, but it also helps your brain connect to your body. In a way that I think we're so used to just like kind of dissociating or discussing.
Yeah, no, I can see that it is, it is
a really like nuanced conversation, but if starting in your brain is where it feels good because that's what you're used to then fine. That's great. We can start there. And hopefully our goal
is to connect those
thoughts to different sensations in your body, so that when you're thinking about safety, you can actually feel physically feel.
Little pockets of
safety inside of you.
Exactly. And just even starting to notice. Right. So often it's like, we it's scary. It can be scary to notice, which is why often we don't. Um, yeah, but like, I don't belong. I'm like, oh, I have no idea. All the stuff going on in my body. It was just like, I feel pain.
That's I'm gone. Like my brains, just connect or find. Get really tense and then, and try to fight it that way. Yeah.
It goes back to what you were saying earlier. You were like,
you know, it's unacceptable to be flailing your legs or screaming or doing these things in a medical procedure. So yeah, we're taught to just shut off
any feeling because that's the
only way that we're going to
then not do those things.
Yeah. Well, and again, the brain and body are so connected that actually I'd love to. Resource you can use is imagining yourself doing that. Like maybe you're not playing, they're kicking your legs, but while, while you're in the procedure or even afterward you can, what is it like to imagine my body being able to do exactly what it wanted you in that moment?
No consequences right now, this is an imaginary situation. So I don't have to worry about the consequences. What would that be like if my body. Well it's legs. You can even flow your legs when you get home. Right. There are, there are ways. And for folks who are, and I know for me in the beginning, it felt weird.
It felt silly. It's like, are you sure? Like, surely this can't help me. And I'm, you know, I will never say like, you're going to go home and follow your legs. And you're going to feel a hundred percent better. That is not it. But it's like, again, it's bringing more awareness and connection to your brain and body.
And giving your nervous system, like the chance to react in the way that it wants to, to protect you. Yeah. And I think that's, that's another way of kind of a deeper way of like, how do I ally with this part of myself that like, I can't always let come out practically. I totally get that. Yeah. I can't feel my legs, especially if they're, they're working on a part of your body that you can't move.
Yeah, you can't move it. So yeah. What can you imagine doing, or what can you imagine doing once you get, you know, later when you are in a place where you feel more safe to be able to let your mind go there, let your body go there. Okay.
Yeah.
And just to reiterate, like you said, it's not about feeling immediately better or all of my anxiety is now gone, but what we're talking about here is being an ally to your body.
And if you think about being an ally to anyone or anything, you're not fixing their problems for them, you're supporting them in their fight and in their issues. So that's what we're doing with
our.
Yeah, but yeah, I love that. That's exactly right. Like, yeah, we're not. And we might, again, we don't know how to fix things for other people and we don't always know how to fix it birth out, but we can start with okay.
What would it look like to just add a little support here? Yep. You know, whatever that looks like for me. And I say all that stuff. Being this work for me and other people. Like I, you know, I know it's easy to hear this and be like, okay, like, sure. I didn't does it is helpful again, it's not necessarily, you're going to do this exercise one time and you're going to be, you know, a hundred percent cured or whatever.
And most of us aren't ever going to be fully, you know, we have chronic conditions for those, you know, listening to your podcast and know that that's likely true for most of us. Okay. So I want to identify the reality because I think so many of us feel like people just expect us to get better. And we, we have some real connection to like, this is even when I'm like right now, my pain is really well-managed, but I have to be pretty intentional about continuing that.
Yeah. Right. And meeting, like supporting my body and meaning it where that, so I also want to be clear. So this is really just a way to help them. Continue to support yourself. It's one case. Yeah. And sometimes it could be part of the puzzle that leads to less pain or less activation in your body. Again, I can't, I'm not ever going to promise anyone that it's going to resolve every problem that you have.
That's just not how any of it work. But that, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a way, like you said, it's just a way to ally with your body instead of fighting it. Like our bodies are. Especially, we have chronic conditions. Like our buyer is already like work in a really, really hard, right. It's already fighting a lot.
And so man, like I'd rather, it's similar with, you know, I do a lot around self-compassion, it's kind of the same thing. Like I wouldn't, I be, you know, it might be nice to just be an ally with myself or with my body then to keep the add, you know, another fight in. Yeah.
And the mindfulness piece is just, that's the tool of how we get there.
You know, you talked about not knowing, not even knowing what we need a lot of the time, especially in the beginning of this process and that we don't know what we need because we're disconnected from our body. So part of becoming mindful does mean you might feel your pain a little bit more. You might you know, you're becoming more aware and less dissociated.
So yeah, there's some pain in that, but the ultimate goal is
to. Be acutely aware
and then we can acutely be able to explain what we need to ourselves and to others. No. It's like learning how to figure we're figuring out what we need. And then in that process, we can then figure out how to ask
for what we need.
Exactly. Yeah. The way the wording. I typically, I tend to use with myself and with, with people I work with is like, we're, we're just kind of creating a little bit more. Right. So before we might be so tense or constricted, that there is no room even think about like what we might need or what am I feel like in our body.
And so again, it's like, how can we create like 5% more space to even start to ask, start to think like, well, what if there was a different way? Or what if there was you know, if I felt, yes, I might feel my pain a little bit more. I might be more aware of. But what if that could lead to more support for my body for more information that would help me navigate this in a different way or in a way that feels more supportive, more helpful to me?
Yeah, I really that's just way, I think being really clear that there's,
I, you know, I think creating more space for me, just feel. It feels like what's happening. Right. And there's, there's, it's a neutral kind of way to look at it without judging yourself. Like, oh, I need to, I need to work on this thing or I really need to make sure I change this pattern or change this thought.
No, we're just like, what if we could create just a little more space around this pain, this feeling whatever's coming up so that I could maybe like, take a look around. Is there more for me to learn here? Is there another way that I could make it through the situation I could be. Okay. And support myself in a new way.
Yeah. We've talked a lot
today about how we can support ourselves and in that, you know, mindfulness and learning how to advocate for yourself in that way. I'm curious though, do you have. Um, thoughts that you might want to quickly share, and maybe we could expand on it in the future,
but quickly share about what about the outside
world?
Like what about everyone else? Like how can other people support us, especially when we don't know how to support ourselves?
Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question. I think, you know, I thought I had earlier is again, kind of going back to, if you do have access to therapy. I mean, I know for me. The most helpful thing was having a safe person in the room with me who could kind of add that support.
You know, they kind of could bring in the structure of support that I, that my body didn't have as I like expanded that space. And so I think finding those people, right. So and one thing is your body knows who those people are. Like, it feels like I said, like what's an environment who are people that can feel.
A little bit more safe for you then, you know, I think there are folks that don't feel as safe. They just don't have the capacity to hold that with us in the way that we need. And that's, that is what it is. That's fine. Right. It, it can be hurtful depending on our relationship with that person, but it also, you know, that's just true.
And so who are people that do have that capacity? I think, I don't know. Question is more to about like systemically or like in the medical world. Yeah. That's, that's a good point too. We could go a million directions with it, but, um, maybe we'll just ask if there was
one piece of advice, just one starting point.
So I know it will be simplified advice and remember
there's always nuance here. Um, but if there was just one piece
of advice you had either for
doctors or friends or parents, Who maybe
like, where can they start if they just don't get it? They just don't understand why, what we're talking
about here is important.
Yeah. Um, I like I'm taking that in for a moment and thinking, um, I mean the first thing that comes to mind is really noting it, that they don't get it. They can't get it. They've never experienced. This, you know, they never experienced chronic pain in their body. They've never, you know, they, when they're sick or when they are in pain, they, they found a way to get better and usually happen for them.
And I think just really being honest with themselves that like the person who's the expert in what's happening is the person experience. I think that's true for so many things right now, you know, there's so many things that come up for me as I say that, but I think they have to be honest and, and know that it's okay, that they don't know how to fix it.
Right. We talked about that first and we don't always know how to fix it. So when, when I have someone who like wants to fix it and ask me how, like, that can also feel, I guess, that their intention is to help me. But it's hard when I don't even fully know. And it's hard to have space around that person for me, if they're like, I need to figure out how to fix this for you.
Like, well, you know, I would love to know, but again, it's chronic, that's part of what we're like, that's part of the struggle with this is there's not like a clear way to fix it. There's not a way that really like learning how to, you know, how to hold. Pain how hold struggle kind of going back to, again, like pain is going to happen in our life.
It's stuck, you know, there maybe there's a world where that doesn't exist. But what we know about the world right now is like, as human beings, we're going to experience pain. And our goal as caregivers, as you know, supporters, even of medical professionals is not always to end the pain. Especially if we can't especially about person that's telling us, like I've tried everything and I just can't figure it out.
Obviously like our, like your first reaction is I want to help this person not feel pain, but there has to be room to see them in their place, either struggle and try to understand it, knowing that like, if you've never been there, you can't. Yeah. Right. So deferring to that person when Really, I think to just, I think it's so powerful for those of us who experienced this to have someone just want to learn more or right.
Not someone who's going to tell us you shouldn't have you tried this diet? Have you taken this medicine? Have you done this? Like sometimes if we, if we're asking for it, that's helpful. That's how I found a lot of things. It was networking with other folks, but usually it's other folks who, who have the similar experience to me.
So I think just really, again, going back to mindfulness and curiosity, and really like, acknowledging like, yeah, I don't get it. Yeah. And I want to learn and more so that I can be a safe, supportive person to you. And I think that's true for doctors and medical professionals, other therapists, like we have to really step back from like, as much as we want to help folks.
I think we have to step back from like, I've got the answer for you. Especially when it's someone that's sitting in front of us, that's like been looking for answers for years and years and years, you know, cause coming in with like, well, I got it. Like maybe, but I think you first need to make space, some builds for us that like you're here to listen and understand before you're here to.
Give it give a solution, right? Cause if you've been trying your whole
life and you've failed over and over and over again to fix this, even if someone does somehow have this magic pill, you, your body already knows that every time you've tried something. It has ended in failure. And so for you to immediately come to me and say, I have the solution, I actually don't trust you now because I don't trust
solutions.
Exactly. And I don't trust that you know enough about what's happening for me yet or what I've tried so far, or, you know, like you, I know that's what I need from people. Like they need to take time to understand. Cause my conditions, my story is really good. Right. If you read one note about me and you think you have the magic pill, I, yeah.
I'm not going to trust you at all. Right. That's a really good point. And so, I mean, I think too, it goes back to the mindfulness piece around around. Yeah. Like it's okay. If I don't have a solution right now, what's most important is that I understand like gain as much understanding of the person in front of.
And like that, even if I like as this, like able-bodied person stand here and this person looks safe and seems okay. And it seems like this, this medication or this diet or whatever could work for them. Knowing that me saying it doesn't create safety for them, right. Going back to felt safety like this person has to feel that you're safe before.
We get to solution that's
right. It goes back to that thought versus Leah felt safety in the body. I can say to myself all day long, this doctor's not going to hurt me, but until my body believes
that I'm
not, I'm not going to be able to even absorb a lot of what they're saying.
And obviously for us, it's different for everyone.
Like what creates felt safety, but there are some, some themes. And I think one of the. I know for most of us with chronic conditions, just like that. You really like, I can feel that you actually want to understand what's happening when I tell you that I have pain. Even if you can't find the reason for it, that you acknowledge my pain.
Yeah. Right. I can't tell you how many, like medical professionals or even other, like people, you know, other people in my life that, well, you don't look like you're in pain, right. Or I ran all these tests and nothing's wrong with you. So. It must just, you know, be in your head or be, you know, yeah, probably not a big deal while I've been in excruciating pain for once a month, a month, three years even.
Right. So I think until someone can show us that they want to understand, and that no matter what, they're going to validate that we know like that I'm the expert in my body. I'm the only one that was feeling this pain that's happening in my body. Like you can't deny that what I'm feeling. Until I know that you're that big person.
Yeah. I'm not going to trust you, even if you have a magic pill, like you said it. And even if I try it, like the, I I'm sure. I know that there's research around this, like this idea of like, if I don't feel safe that even if the medical procedure is exactly right, like there, it's still going to be harder for my body to take it in, take longer, to feel positive effects.
Right even if you fix the pain or the problem or the thing
in the body, the body still remember your tissue still remember the pain. And so we physically feel pain in that area. And if we don't believe that that procedure was really worthy or trustworthy, then our signals in our brain, which again, this is not about thoughts.
Like this is automatic. It's going to send pain signals to that area, even if their
problem is solved. So to like. Be like, oh, we need to be on alert. Right? So like, things will be activated. Your muscles might be more tense that they're ready to respond to, to something bad happened to a threat. Right.
Because we're not that. Yeah. I think that's one of the biggest things is like, if we don't have felt safety, our body is on alert and it's looking for threats and it's not always going to trust that this thing that a medical professional or a loved one is saying is safe. So we, yeah, the most important thing for, I think anyone working with folks with chronic chronic pain, with any kind of like chronic struggle in their life, you know, something that they've been dealing with for a long time with systemic oppression, like all, you know, there's so many things like this, where if we don't center the person, the person's experienced that that's like actually experiencing it and we don't let them Feel heard, feel understood and feel like, you know, no matter what we're going to be here to offer support when they express pain to us, then, then yeah.
There's no, no, we're never going to feel safer on that person or in a system or, you know, in the medical field. And I think that's a real, that's something. I think the medical field I've definitely found a lot more doctors. The past few years that I do feel safe with than I ever did. You know, when I was younger, like an earlier, earlier days I think that there are folks in the medical fields that are understanding this more, but we have so far to go both in the medical field and in our society in general, and really being able to support folks who have, who can't find fault basically for good reason, like your brain and body is trying to protect you.
Very good reason. I, yeah,
absolutely. Well, thank you so much for all of that. I think there was a lot of different pieces to take away today. Obviously for yourself, things you can start doing immediately. And then, um, also, you know, from medical professionals, just become curious, don't lose that curiosity that probably got you into medical school to begin
with.
Don't get defensive, do your own work, your own inner work. And don't get defensive when, uh, when a patient is in your office also being defensive and kind of like attacky because we have really bad experiences with the medical field. And so if you can do that, then you can also, if you can understand that, then you can also be an ally for us while we're trying to do everything to ally for
ourselves.
For sure. Yeah, I know we need to wrap up. There's one thing, I think it's so important that people get tangible resources. I thought it's come up. I've thought about multiple times I've been talking. So that was like, are looking for another resource to help ground their body. Um, one thing that Peter Levine, who is, you know, like the, the father of the madic experiencing, if you will, um, he uses a lot now is the VU found similar to.
If you don't do that a lot in life feel strange, but you can, there are lots of videos out there. Um, but it's like a really helpful way works for me. And lots of my, the people I work for, you know, people are always like, it's so weird, it's so simple. But like, I really do feel more grounded and the theory is it activates our Vegas nerve in a way that's really grounding.
Yeah. Do you want to even give like a quick. Sure. Yeah, I'll just explain it and then we can do it and then we can wrap up from there. Um, so yeah, the way I, I typically tell folks is, you know, we take a breath in and then when you're ready, you kind of make the voo sound from your gut, kind of like, you know, as you're exhaling, it's like that.
Um, yeah. It's like part of your exhale is the. And I just flew until my breath friends out and then taking a moment or a few moments afterward to just notice. So maybe even starting with noticing where your body's at right now, and then we'll take a breath in
Yeah, and I would take, you know, as long as you need and you're a couple more, if that ever good. Um, and I always tell people too, it's not a, it's not meant to be a beautiful sound like but even now I'm like talking softer, I'm feeling, you know, I'm noticing yeah, like my body is. Good relax. Even just slightly.
I noticed my pelvic floor went from like tight. I'm sitting up straight I'm on a hard chair and everything just
completely like let loose. And it doesn't
to your point, it doesn't fix that problem. I actually just tightened up again, as soon as I started talking, but that awareness means that I can pay attention more throughout the day and maybe continue to repeatedly relax over and over and over again.
It's not like a, oh, I relaxed and I should stay relaxed. Now it takes practice.
No. Well, and our bodies are meant to move through that, right? Like sometimes feel relaxed and our body is supposed to get activated and respond. Like that's the really important part of our body. It's going to get stuck in one place or the other, that things, you know, are tricky.
And so to your point, like another quote from Peter Levine is like, we're, we're all we're trying to do. What, like in my work and support. My clients is the final ions of safety, right? So it might just be those few, you know, the 30 seconds during the boost, I'll muster one, I want a fake date or your pet dog or a pet fish, or, you know, whatever it is there might be.
But like, if you can, that's how we start to create like 1% more space to have some awareness around those, to ally with our. And starting with islands of safety, but don't push yourself either. That's really important. Oh, such good points. Thanks, joy. Yeah, it was great. Thanks.
Listen to Joy’s interview with me, Destiny Davis, on Ep 8: Your Body As Your Ally, Not Your Enemy with Joy Johnson LCSW
Joy Johnson is a licensed clinical social worker (LCSW) and psychotherapist in Atlanta, Georgia. Her work as a psychotherapist and writer is aimed at helping hardworking people who take care of everything and everyone else learn to take care of themselves and avoid burnout.
Connect with Joy:
Meet Destiny - The host of The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast and a licensed mental health therapist in the states of Georgia and Florida. Destiny offers traditional 50-minute therapy sessions as well as therapy intensives and monthly online workshops for the chronic illness community.