Matthew Morse: A Journey Through Life, Spirituality, and Healing
Professional Journey
Matthew's dedication to the field of mental health led him to earn a master's degree in counseling from Fordham University. He is now a licensed mental health counselor in the state of New York. Matthew operates a private psychotherapy practice in New York City, offering clients a unique blend of therapeutic approaches informed by his diverse life experiences.
Themes in Chronic Illness and Terminal Illness
When asked about common themes among patients facing chronic or terminal illness, Matthew highlighted the universal human experience of confronting mortality. Chronic illness can serve as a wake-up call, making individuals acutely aware of their vulnerability and impermanence. He noted that individuals' responses to illness vary widely, depending on factors such as their age, personal history, and coping mechanisms.
Coping Mechanisms
Matthew emphasized the significance of coping mechanisms when dealing with chronic or terminal illness. While spirituality often plays a role, he stressed that people develop various strategies to navigate the challenges they face. Some individuals turn to their ancestral or religious roots, while others may undergo a period of spiritual struggle, questioning their beliefs and seeking answers to profound existential questions.
Returning to Ancestral Roots
Matthew explained that returning to one's ancestral or religious roots can be a natural response when confronted with illness or existential questions. He mentioned that it's common for individuals to explore their ancestral heritage, particularly in today's age of DNA testing and genealogy research. This exploration can lead people to rediscover and reconnect with cultural or religious practices that provide comfort and meaning.
Healing on Multiple Levels
When discussing healing, Matthew underscored its multifaceted nature. Healing encompasses physical, psychological, social, and spiritual dimensions. On a spiritual level, he described healing as a sense of well-being, openness, and freedom, characterized by warmth, compassion, and an expanded sense of self. Healing is not about curing but about finding inner peace and acceptance.
Psychedelic Therapy
Matthew briefly touched on the topic of psychedelic therapy, highlighting its potential applications in specific therapeutic contexts. He stressed the importance of extensive preparation and therapeutic support before engaging in psychedelic experiences. Matthew mentioned that psychedelics like psilocybin and MDMA are being explored as tools to address issues such as anxiety, addiction, and fear of death.
The Mind-Body Connection Comes of Age
The discussion then shifts to the evolving understanding of the mind-body connection. Despite the growing awareness of the mind-body connection, the conversation touches upon the challenges of integrating this knowledge into practice.
Chronic Illness: A Path to Greater Awareness
The dialogue concludes with a profound reflection on the relationship between suffering, spirituality, and chronic illness. Chronic illness is acknowledged as a powerful teacher, helping individuals become more attuned to the reality of suffering. People living with chronic conditions often develop a heightened sense of empathy and an ability to find beauty and meaning amid challenges.
Conclusion
Matthew Morse's journey through life, spirituality, and healing is a testament to the diverse paths one can take in the field of mental health. His dedication to helping individuals navigate the challenges of chronic and terminal illness, along with his openness to alternative therapeutic approaches, offers a unique perspective on the complex and deeply personal journey of healing.
Disclaimer: Everything we discuss here is just meant to be general education and information. It's not intended as personal mental health or medical advice. If you have any questions related to your unique circumstances, please contact a licensed therapist or medical professional in your state of residence.
Destiny Davis, LPC CRC, is solely responsible for the content of this article. The views expressed herein may or may not necessarily reflect the opinions of the guest.
The content in this blog post comes directly from a real, human interview between Destiny and her guest on The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast. This written version was formatted using AI. Listen to the full episode to hear the actual conversation.
Listen to my full conversation with Matthew Morse on Ep 28: Spirituality and Chronic Illness: A Grounded Conversation w/ Matthew Morse, LMHC
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Episode transcribed with AI and may contain errors that are not representative of the actual word or meaning of the sentence.
Matthew Morse was born in 1962 and grew up in suburban St. Louis, Missouri, and Tacoma, Washington. . He spent a lot of his teenage years cycling on the open roads of Washington State, and as an undergrad, he studied philosophy and some ancient Greek at St. John's College in Annapolis, Maryland. From 1986 to 1987, he studied poetry under Allen Ginsburg, Robert Creeley, Philip Wallen, Clark Coolidge, and the disembodied spirits of Jack Kerouac and Ted Berrigan at Naropa University.
Matthew has a deep love of the arts, and is an accomplished amateur folk.
Since 1988. He's been engaged in Tibetan Buddhist psychology and the practices of the body, speech and mind. So these deeply inform his therapeutic view, but he's also partial to psychodynamic exploration, existential psychology, and even. . Matthew has lived in New York City since 1994 and he worked in the magazine and luxury good industry for about 20 years.
He's been married for 27 and has two adult daughters. In 2015, he trained as an interfaith chaplain at Mount Sinai Hospital, and then he worked for nearly six years in end of life Care at Calvary Home Hospice. In 2016, he volunteered as a test subject for a research study at John Hopkins University on the effects of psilocybin on long-term media.
He picked up a master's degree in counseling from Fordham University and is now a licensed mental health counselor in the state of New York.
He has a private psychotherapy practice based in New York City, and of course,
I would love to know a little bit about you and your practice. You're in New York City, um, how long you've been practicing and tat, just tell me a little bit about your work. Uh, thank you, destiny. I, um, I just started a private practice here in Manhattan, but prior to this, uh, which I, I just opened this practice a month ago.
I'm in Union Square in Manhattan. I have an office. I'm old school. I still like to see people in the, in the, in, in three dimensions. And, um, so I'm, so I'm starting, I'm building a practice and prior to this I worked in hospice care. Um, and I. First I started as a chaplain. I was a trained, uh, chaplain, Buddhist chaplain, but interfaith chaplain.
And then from there I went to school and got a degree in counseling and passed and did my exams and whatnot. So I've worked on both sides of death, both, uh, before to death. And after the death. Uh, so, um, with the grieving family now, so, and I have had a lot of experience also with chronic illnesses cuz I did my training at Mount Sinai Hospital.
So, uh, I was actually, um, on the gastrointestinal unit. Um, so I spent a lot of time with, uh, various transplant peoples as well as with, uh, Crohn's and irritable bowel syndrome, and then a lot of, um, some sickle cell. Sickle cell anemia people. Uh, so I have, I've had a range of experiences and uh, yeah, that's me.
That's me. That's, that's my prac, that's my practice. Yeah. Awesome. Can you tell me, when you were working in HO Hospice and seeing chronic illness, is there a theme you came across with the particular patients you were talking with? Um, any kind of theme, whether that was. About their belief systems.
Sometimes, um, you know, when we're on deaths fed, we start to think more about these things or, um, what were some of the things that just came up, uh, during that time for you? Well, are you referring to chronic illness or terminal illness? That's a good question. Um, do you, can you speak to both or is there one, one over the other that I can.
I can speak to both. They are, they are related. I think that, um, any illness, if it's serious enough, um, if it's intense enough or has long duration, wakes us up to the fact that we're, that we're mortal and human, that we're fragile, vulnerable, that Im permanent, that, that this body isn't so reliable. Maybe not this world.
Sadly, sometimes our personal interpersonal relationships aren't reliable either. And um, so it really depended on the person I met and where they were in the trajectory of their diagnosis. Uh, I met, you know, I met people who were, Ben worked with people who were young and they had to 19 years old, and they had to leave college because they had their first Crohn's flare up and their parents were there.
Thank God to help them and. And then I've also worked with people who've, who've battle, who had the illness all their lives or for decades, and who have very sophisticated coping mechanisms. So what you discover is that people, um, mature and develop hopefully through, with support of therapists and family and friends that they can develop, uh, ways of coping with their.
That makes perfect sense. Um, what, what were some of the coping mechanisms that you either saw to be most powerful or maybe the most, um, prevalent. . Mm-hmm. . Well, I, I, I have to say, you know, people do get spiritual when they get older or near death, and let's face it, um, chronic illness comes to most of us if we're lucky enough to make it to 70.
I'm 60 right now, so I'm fine. You know, the mild eczema that I control with the right skincare. But, but I don't, I, I've been very blessed, very fortunate. And, uh, I mean my, I, I'm, I'm what's called a, um, second degree, rel first degree relative of, of chronic illnesses. My mother had ju adult onset juvenile diabetes and, uh, comorbid persistent depressive disorder.
And, uh, even more strangely, Huntington's disease runs in my family. So I've been around it a. But so what? A lot of people, you know, there are no , there's that joke. There are no atheists in the foxhole, but reality, there are sometimes atheists in the foxhole and they can, they can handle it and weather their, their illness and eventual dying process with grace and dignity.
It's entirely possible. I'm not of that elk. I make that leap of faith. I, I joke about it. I call it my. Positive self hallucination. I, you know, cause I'm, I'm educated. I'm, I'm able to be skeptical. But, uh, but yeah, I find it very useful to have a, um, to have a sense of transcendence after this life. To love both this life and the life hereafter in my form of, in my Buddhism.
We, we have future lives, past lives. I don't have any true, true insight into that, but I, um, I do find it a marvelous coping mechanism in a way of expanding things so that I can deal with the wild unfairness of life and, but I've seen many so that that's a general, it is a tendency, people ask the big questions, they do a life review.
They go back to who gave them the most love in this life and who they've given a lot of love to. They meditate on love and gratitude and so that they can love both this life and the next life so that they can have peace of mind. Maybe they, and, and they can, uh, sometimes they do become more spiritual, but I've seen very few deathbed conversions to be honest with you.
And then, then, although. I'm sure there are a lot of conversions within the chronic illness trajectory, especially if people haven't, when they're young. You know, it can, cuz it's a coping, it's spiritual coping mechanism. Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's also maybe a lot of deconversion or conversion too from growing up.
Religious to sometimes or, or spiritual us. Well, usually you grow up with a, a religion, right. And then, right. Um, a lot of times, and maybe it's just the age, you know, 20, 30. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , you are not yet asking. I think those big, big questions. I think you're more so asking the why questions. Why did this happen instead of how mm-hmm.
um, which kind of, I think can lead to some of the more deconstruction of faith and spirituality. Mm-hmm. . And then you start to, I think as you get older, ask more of those. I like what you said, like people. On their, they're, they're asking these, um, these questions, these big life questions, and trying to just kind of reflect and make meaning and sense of it all.
Right? Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Most people, when they're. Young, there's, they're, it's about, you know, to be Darwinian, it's survival and reproduction, or it's money and sex, you know, and I don't know which order it's , you know, whether we're conscious of it or not. It is an evolutionary drive that defines us as animals and people.
And um, then as we get older, when, when we face our mortality and we see our other friends, see enough of our other friends die, or maybe if we've been hurt by. Other losses such as a, a out of the blue betrayal or divorce or, you know, or something horrifically unfair when then we ask what's it all about.
And, um, some people go through a phase of what we call spiritual struggle, where they ask God or the infinite, uh, uh, why me, you know, why this, you know, and in some, that's a big feature in. In, in, in Judaism, people argue with God in Judaism. Um, but uh, yeah, and it can be, it can be, that's a natural phase to go through that.
And I've worked with people through that and I basically just, uh, meet them where they're at. You know, I just, that that's where they are. Yeah. Do people tend to find you because they are already using spirituality as a coping mechanism and they're seeking somebody who can help them hone that? Or would you say that it's maybe a, a mix of people that come to see you?
Oh, well, it's a, it's a bit of a mix. I'm, you know, I was trained all chaplains train as interfaith chaplains, and then they identify as one thing or another. It's sad, but true. They become, oh, I'm a Catholic chaplain, or I'm a Protestant, or I'm Buddhist. So I always got the strange people that were spiritual but not religious.
Um, lovely people. I don't mean, I mean, , I got the, uh, wonderful creative people. And here in New York, some of them are the most fascinating people. A lot of them are artists and, uh, you know, they've had, um, interesting careers and they're, they're open and creative. They're not into, um, um, absorbing or following the dogma.
But what, as you did bring up earlier, There are a lot of people who return to their ancestral, their, their roots. And so if, if I meet someone who went to Catholic school when they were young, and maybe now they're 70 and dying of cancer, and they've had a year of, they were baby boomers, they experimented with psychedelics and maybe played around with Buddhism, Hinduism, travel to India, who knows.
But when they get old, they do go back. They do go back to those. You know, the, those ancestral roots, it's a combination of the two. Depends on the person. But yeah. But I had very few real Buddhist towards the very end, but I did have some that were quite remarkable and, uh, so I could deeply connect with them.
But also I was raised Episcopalian, so I would connect with my Episcopalian, my Christians, and Catholics, like Episcopalians. So I was fortunate. . Yeah. And, uh, And then I love the arts and the meaning making that's involved in, in the arts. And, and I think, uh, um, I always lo, I always love to ask my, um, 12 step clients, patients, you know, what their idea but their higher power is.
And I always, it's so, so amazing to see the diversity of people's conceptions of, uh, that which cannot be conceived. You know, it. Oh, yeah. It cre requires creativity. It requires art to even, yeah. Think about that question. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I had one beautiful gentleman once he was dying and he said that, uh, for me, heaven is the voice of Ella Fitzgerald in the air.
And that's, and that was, he was, and he was sticking with that. I love that. Yeah, can you maybe speak a little bit more to what it even means to go back to someone's roots? I know that sounds could sound really simple, but um, for someone who's never even thought about that before, what might that start to look like for someone?
For someone who never, oh, they have roots, but they've, um, yeah, they haven't thought about their ancestors or what, what practices or traditions, you know, they kind of, and so yeah. What would that look like if someone were curious about that? They're like, what does that mean? Well, uh, how old are we as this, this ideal, this client we're thinking of?
Maybe 25 to 30. . So they're younger, they're kind of thinking about this question for the first time. Um, and they have a, they have a chronic illness and they're starting to look back at their, the religion that, that, uh, maybe did some harm to them and now they're looking at it re it could even, it could be that, or I'm even thinking when I'm thinking of ancestral healing and, and, and, um, you know, thinking back to even, you know, our, our country obviously was founded on like a, a Protestant, um, Founding.
Um, but if you think back even further, sometimes we get into pagan roots and, um, old Celtic kind of. Do you, is that kind of how far back you go sometimes when you're, when you're talking about this? Sure. Yeah. It depends on the person and what they're keyed into. Some, for some people, obviously they're the diagnosis, diagnosis of a chronic illness.
Uh, there may not be terminal at all for five decades. It's the beginning of the spiritual, um, exploration, shall we say. And, uh, you know, some people go back to, we say Celtic roots or I have some weird connection with Tibetan Buddhism. I don't know why I met some teachers. I liked the dharma, the teachings, uh, stuck with me.
Um, but I love my. Episcopalian roots, they're beautiful. The majesty of the language and uh, the book of common prayer is like reading 17th century poetry. You know, there's a reason why, why John Don and Robert Harrick and Henry Vaughn, all these old British poets and, uh, via here in America. Yeah, we have a lot of.
Creative thinking religiously, spiritually, we always have people have come here for freedom or utopia one sort or another, or also just to make a living and do better and survive sometimes, obviously. Yeah, depending on the family. So people go back to their roots. I think more now than ever. I think people are into Ancestry, D n A and 23andme, and they're looking at this and I, yeah.
If you find out you're 20% Scottish and you didn't know it, all of a sudden you're interested in watching Outlander or things Celtic, you know, why not? It was true. It's true. Yeah. Um, which, you know, can be a privilege in and of itself, just knowing that certain, um, populations don't have, uh, access to their roots.
And I just wanna kind of verbalize that and under have an understanding of the fact that some of us, um, yeah. That you may not. As clear of a path, um, to kind of looking back at, at ancest at your ancestors, especially you came here in the slave trade. Um, oh yeah. Well, the, well the African American community, they're obviously some of the most spiritually, uh, observant people.
I mean, the gospel tradition is, uh, Huge. That's, uh, the, it's extremely deep. And, um, people wonder, oh, why aren't there more, uh, more black people doing Buddhism? You know, and, and it's like, cuz they don't need it. They have the community , they've got their grandmother, their cousins, their family. If it's just, it's right there in, you know, in the, in the, in the neighborhood, you know, the, the authentic bull body, the, you know, gospel tradition is a beautiful.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I like what you, you kind of brought up earlier, um, you asked the question, clarifying question around maybe if I was bringing up maybe harm that has been done by religion. Um, and while I wasn't, I wasn't going there at the time. I think it's also a good place to talk about, like, when you're going back to your roots and trying to look at, you know, healing and, and when we say healing, we're not talking about curing some chronic condition.
We're touch just talking about healing actually. How would you des, how would you define that? Healing. Healing, yeah. Oh wow. There are many degrees of healing. There's healing. Bio, the psycho, the social and the, uh, spiritual levels, you know, and, um, obviously I'm interested largely in the, uh, the spiritual and the psycho, uh, healing.
But, um, you need all those dimensions to work together. Really. You need your, you need your interpersonal social community, and you need your, you know, you should, I mean, I'm. I'm very wary of the medical system, but I, I, I would say go get, go get a checkup and then we'll, it's important, you know? Yeah. And do what modern science can do and, and don't believe everything they say and don't, don't get too, uh, wrapped up in, uh, sometimes people get talked into, uh, these, uh, Into, uh, being part of a, a subject in a test and that, that they get harmed by that.
And that's sad, but healing on a spiritual level, that is the question. What is this internal healing that can happen that can radiate outwards, you know, this healing within this spiritual, this, um, finding the love within, which can also be through psychotherapy, through secular psychotherapy is a. These are real things.
And um, so I define it as a sense of, um, wellbeing, openness, freedom associated with warmth and luminosity, radiating compassion, being kind to yourself and others. Relaxed. Sense of humor. Yeah. The good sense of humor. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Being able to, Have a, have a, an air of lightness while you're carrying some really heavy stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, uh, you know, I don't suffer from, um, from a chronic illness, you know, more than I do, um, actually, so, but I imagine it can be really tough when it, it hurts to laugh, for example, or. Or, you know, or just, or you can't breathe properly. And the effect breath has on our, on our, on our being is very real.
I'm a very somatic person, so, yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's, that's my mo my modality of choice. Somatic experiencing, um, and, and acceptance and commitment therapy. Mm-hmm. , so I bring somatics a lot into therapy and even. So yeah, there is you, you're right, like there could be a physical hurt with laughing, but also sometimes it's an emotional hurt.
Feels like if you're, if you're laughing while you're in this much pain, then it feels either invalidating or it feels like, um, you know, even like getting your hopes up that things are okay and then they're not. And I think again, the spiritual aspect helps. , learn to ride those waves, the ups and downs so that you're not just expecting.
Cause I think the problem comes when, you know, like if you're feeling let down by the fact that you're laughing now and you might not be laughing tomorrow, then that, to me is a spiritual conversation. We get into the concepts of impermanence and mm-hmm. , all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, in, in, in Buddhism, we say it's be, be careful of not getting too caught up in hopes and fears.
Mm, that, you know, just cuz you're feeling better today doesn't mean it's gonna be happening tomorrow or the day after. It's, um, it's all about, and that's where presence comes in, you know, presence. And, uh, but these are empty words when someone's really suffering. Um, sometimes all you can do is be with them, hold their hand, you know, and.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And another thing that I was curious about, um, when I was reading through, um, is psychedelic therapy. Do you practice with psychedelics in your, um, practice or is that just something Yeah. Can you tell me your relation to that? Oh, psychedelics. Yes. Um, , I, I don't do it in my practice. I, I am a, the only one that's legal, in fact that's not really a psychedelic is ketamine, which you're probably aware of.
Um, ketamine's considered a dissociative. Uh, so in that sense, it's close to a religious experience cuz we could say that the spiritual state is a little dissociative. It's, uh, an, an expanse. Now then maybe that's a misuse of words, but there's some overlap. And that's, that's that internal spiritual healing that, that, that expanse one can have, uh, through spiritual practice, through ketamine.
I, I haven't done ketamine much, but my main experiences with, um, I was part of a study at Johns Hopkins University in 2016, so I worked with, um, Roland Griffiths and, and Mary, uh, Casa, they're, they're big. They'll see 'em in all the psychedelic literature that's out there. Michael Pollin spent a lot of time with them.
And, um, and so I was down there. They were doing a lo, a study of long-term meditators to see what would happen if they took, uh, psilocybin magic mushrooms. Um, and, uh, the idea was that, and it's pretty much true since I became. A Buddhist serious practitioner I'd, I'd stopped doing psychedelics since I was 20, uh, five or 6 25.
You know, when I was in college, I did experiment with psychedelics. I'm of the philosophical, um, artistic bent. And so I, I, uh, was curious and, uh, so yeah, I think that, um, it's a big thing right now. Psychedelics. For terminal illness. It's used for, uh, um, obviously it's been, MDMA has been used for couples counseling and, uh, and Psilocybins used for working with addictions and, you know, but it's, it's, it's still not legal.
So, um, what can I say? I'm not, I'm, I'm not an expert on it, but I'm, I'm very, I try to stay up on it to a degree. I think it could be useful for the right clients in the right setting. You, what a lot of people don't understand is that psychedelic therapy involves a long-term psychotherapy before you take the, uh, substance with your, uh, counselor, with your therapist.
Yes. Um, so you've had, you've had, uh, Weeks to, uh, they've, first you've been screened if you know, you're, it's not, it's not appropriate. If you have a history of schizophrenia and other, or if you've had any recent trauma and if you've been screened and, uh, They may screen you if you have chronic, a chronic illness.
I, I would think it would, wouldn't be good for a chronic illness. Maybe the right dosage would, and, uh, then they do, then you do it with the two therapists, one male and one female . And so it's, uh, it's an interesting exploration, but it helps people cut through fear of death, terminal fear. So, and other people can learn to cut through anxiety or, or depress.
But yeah, I don't know what maybe, and maybe with, um, I would think with chronic illness, my gut would tell me that microdosing, psilocybin might be useful in terms of, uh, , but these things are more important is having a spiritual practice or a somatic practice or like your a c t practice.
Something that you do something to hang it on. You're not just a Yeah, it's not a magic cure a pill, you know? It's not a thing that just takes your anxiety away. It's a part of a practice, but it's a little boost and it's a little inspiring and it gives you. A little extra energy. It's like drinking a lot of coffee, you know, or, or I guess like Adderall, I never
I'm not, so I'm, I'm 60 years old. So there's a whole, you're up on a whole new generation of things that, uh, for the future that'll be interesting to assume. Yeah, it is very interesting. But I like that you gave the, the caveat of this is, you know, when you're thinking about psychedelics, it really is, uh, something that you.
Need to be doing work before you dive into that therapeutic work. Whether that is a spiritual practice with a spiritual mentor or therapy. Um mm-hmm. , I think that too, you know, spiritual practice. I think, and I don't know generationally like where this changed or when, or if it's always been this way, but we're just, we're so hyper independent in this country.
Um, so I think, I know indigenous cultures, there was always. There was always a, um, ahead of the, the spiritual, their spiritual practice, whether it was, it was the, you know, a Christian pastor or, um, you know, again, in indigenous cultures. Um, there was a, someone who was heading the spiritual practices in the community, and I don't think we really have a, a strong sense of that.
It doesn't feel like there's, it feels like this is all work you do on your own. I'm curious what you think about that. Oh yeah. It's less communal. Yeah. Well, we do have our modern day shamans in the form of certain therapists and, and certain priests. I do, I do believe that, um, wounded healers, which is basically what a shaman is.
And, uh, they have their rattle in their, you know, in their and their sound, their mantra sounds, you know, their vibrational energies. Um, but a lot of it is the presence and the community having faith and. . But it is true in any traditional, most traditional societies, there's a tight, uh, communal healing.
They get the support of everyone. Uh, that's a great weakness in our culture. Another great weakness in our culture is, um, Christianity, uh, the Judeo-Christian, let's say all the is tradi. The Judeo-Christian tradition is very disembodied. So we're coming and we don't, this whole mind body split as a. No, I'm 60 years old, so when I was your age, you know, you were considered kind of new age or weird to talk about the, the mind body connection through the medium of the breath, you know, body, speech, mind breath, uh, and now that's normalized.
And in terms of, uh, communities, people find their tribes as they say in your generation, I think. Um, and, and you know, so I think there's, I always have hope for, um, humans to find their communities. Their own way. I hope people are, are getting back together as humans. I think it's, you know, for those of us with a chronic illness, it is so hard because covid can be so detrimental to, um, somebody with it can be detrimental to anyone.
They were perfectly healthy people that, that died in this, in this era, but, I have lots of clients still struggling with the reopening and, and connecting with, with folks because of the potential for harm, um, that can come to them because of what, what their body is dealing with already. Um, yeah. Yeah. I had a close friend who had celiac disease who, uh, had to stay home.
She was a therapist and, and they fired her. Can you believe that? Cause she wouldn't go into the office. It was, I mean, she wanted to work from home with the clients and Yeah, I know it, it's, I've, I think. Less common here in Atlanta, um, but anywhere outside of Atlanta that I've, I can see that happening very easily.
Um, but. It is really sad, especially when, I mean, I think part of it too is insurance companies deciding we're no longer paying for telehealth and whatnot. And, um, that, that definitely, yeah. You know, it's the systems, uh, this is back it's systems, right? Yeah. You put something like in insurance regulations and then all of a sudden you can't do your job if you're not coming into the office and it's just.
Because it is sad. It is sad. It is sad. And the, uh, the pandemic, I hope it's over. I like to think it's over, but maybe I delude myself. I, uh, I have hopes and fears. I have . I hear that. I hear that. I, I as well. Um, yeah, there was another question that came to mind as we were talking about, you mentioned something around, It's more commonplace now to be talking about the mind body connection and I, I think it is more commonplace.
People are starting to understand it, and I, I do, I will take your hope for the future and that hopefully we can integrate it. Better because right now, a lot of times it feels like a, a conversation that's being had. But then again, through insurance mandates or, um, just people doing things the way they have always done them for the last 10, 15 years.
Like they might be talking the talk, but there isn't this real integration between the mind and body and we get into therapy and it's, it's still just how do you change your thoughts? How do you change your thoughts? How do you change your thoughts? No, it's, yeah, yeah. The cognitive, uh, um, angle. Well, You know, there are things like cognitive therapy with slogans, mind training slogans, we call them in, in Tibetan Buddhism, LoJo mind training.
And, um, the thing is there that those slogans are integrated with, uh, the teachings as a whole. It's not just some isolated watch your brain, it's, it's integrated with, uh, you know, your, your sense of absolute and relative truth. It's integrated with all of your. Your, your, your, your highest ideals. You know, it's not just, um, tracking the brain and, and, but yeah, we do, you know, that's what I like about my Buddhist practice is it has practices of the body, the speech, and the mind.
So it does have the cognitive practices, but it also has the, the mantra and the breath work and the physical postures and, uh, and uh, yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I think I, I, I don't know. From what I can tell, you know more about this than I do, but I, but, but I imagine, um, A C T and D B T and some of the other, um, some of these other modality mode, um, intervention modalities might involve the body more, right?
Don't, I think so. I think that's kind where I was getting at though earlier, is that in practice, I think there's still a large disconnect between the mind and body, even when we're talking about it. And I think it's because people have done exactly what you kind of just described, where you take this one piece out of a spiritual practice and you say, oh, this is a antidote, or this is the cure to anxiety, to depression.
And you know, now we're gonna kinda spin off that and, and then recreate this whole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, right. I mean, evidence-based, I, I, a lot of evidence-based practices have to, are, are, are questionable because they have to find the ideal, uh, people to use as subjects who have a one illness and then you have to hone in on one, uh, one treatment, uh, modality.
So it's all very questionable. I, I, I, I, I think I'm. Psychotherapy is more of an art than a science. And, uh, other than that, I think it should be , although I'm glad that, um, that, that I, but I think that some of these things have helped people. A, C T and D B T, and, uh, um, I, Fs I suppose I'm, and, and, uh, mbsr, the only one I've done of those four is mbsr, really, and, uh, makes sense.
I found it. I, I found it very kind of more beginning level. It's about stress reduction. It's more secular and, um, yeah, but people go from there and then they, they might go to a meditation retreat and then read more Buddhist books and go more deeply into it. But it's very, um, entry level stuff, you know? I think that's a good way to put it, because.
Everybody needs to enter somewhere, right? And so, yeah. Yeah. If that is our entry level, especially again, like in America, we don't have really a strong, even though we have Protestant roots and, and there's a strong spirituality, like, you know, there's pieces of, of spirituality, there's also this kind of hyper independence.
So we don't really have this strong communal sense of, uh, of community. Um, and I think that, You gotta start somewhere. So you know, there's this entry level, whether that's C B T, or act, or um, D B T. If that gets you into a practice and then it evolves from there mm-hmm. , then that's all, you know. That's all we can ask for, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And then you can find your community and further refine your tribe. Find a nice group of people that's not too culty, , definitely. You know, where it's, yeah. Yeah. How can you speak a little bit to like community, it sounds like, so maybe even for, for you, where you found your community and your spirituality, um, can you speak a little bit to that?
Just finding community, ah, finding community. Well, I'm, uh, I'm a married man of 27 years and I have two. Adult daughters 21 and 24. So that's kind of the center of my community. And then I belong to a, um, a, a, a wonderful poetry writing group on Sundays. That's one part of my tribe. Um, cause I have these overlapping interests of poetry and spirituality and, and, uh, psychotherapy.
So, uh, spiritually, like I've, I've always been more of a, um, independent yogi than, than a. Belong to the sang, what we call the sang, uh, person. But now as I get older, I, I'm, I'm more, uh, less defensive and more relaxed and want to just share or not share my, my experiences, um, with all kinds of people. And, uh, and so yeah, I've belong, I've, I've taken some initial steps, steps to, uh, joining the community of Tibetan Buddhist out in Colorado, Zegar Tro.
I like his work. Um, and then y. Tradition. Tradition, and is there from the lineage. Teacher named Dogo. Dingo. Kenpo. He was a, died in 91 or so. So I had, I had, I had guru, I had gurus. And so therefore, yeah, there's communal things around that and it's, I wouldn't say it's a cult, but it was, it's cult-like to our eyes, it's very foreign.
No, and it's in my, uh, my humble working class. The grandparents weren't so happy when I got involved in that. They're old time Methodists and Oh, I know, I know. You're in. You're in Atlanta, so you, you have a lot of that, um, tradition, the Bible belt and, um, yeah, yeah. The, yeah, ev everyone's community is a little different and, uh, yeah.
I know I didn't, yeah, sometimes I joined the Episcopal church recently. I went through a phase where I was involved in my local Episcopal church and I was a, um, a Eucharistic minister, and I loved it. It was wonderful. I got back in with my roots and the, you know, the cadence and the language and the majesty of the, uh, Episcopal church.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my introduction to um, really spirituality and, and really just mindfulness in general was Tek, not Han. And that's really the foundation. I mean, I had a professor in undergrad who like just nailed act into our head. And um, this was before, you know, way before I could practice, but, um, it was between, you know, acceptance and commitment therapy and the, cuz it has very Buddhist undertones.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, and then, Yeah, I read a lot of Tick Knot Han uh, and that was kind of my, yeah, my entryway, if you will. He, yeah, he's an amazing crossover figure in that, you know, close to, uh, Martin Luther King back in the sixties. So he has that, that social justice side to him and mm-hmm. Anti-War. And then he has that, he wrote, he's written books about Christianity also, and that overlap and.
He's been a real, a real role model. I actually was trained as a chaplain by a rabbi who'd read all of of Tinot Ha That was his . Yeah. Yeah. And um, and then I've worked with some people in the hospice industry that are, that are. Part of his community. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Is there anything else that comes to mind today?
Um, just about spirituality and kind of dealing with suffering? I know, you know, chronic illness, not necessarily, it's just the suffering of life, um, which chronic illness definitely brings along with it. So any kind of thoughts you would wanna leave people with around suffering and spirituality? Well, I'd, I'd say that's exactly right.
I think. People who suffer from chronic illness are more in tune with the reality of, of suffering. And you know, we, we talk about the four marks of existence in Buddhism, birth, old age, sickness, and death. I mean, old age sickness and death will come to all of us. And so, um, I know it's overused that, that these, um, people with chronic illnesses, that's also their superpower.
But it's often true. You know, people learn, by learning to cope. I think what they learned to do is, um, what I, what I've seen over and over again is people not just wanting to feel better themselves, but they get better themselves through, uh, prayer, if you want to call it for other people, for dead people they've known that have given love to them, and prayer for other people, they're attuned to, um, the heartbreak in the Ukraine, for example.
Um mm-hmm. . So there's a certain, um, Tender, um, sad beauty to it all. And, uh, and uh, and, and so I think that there are, um, time and again, I noticed that the people with chronic illnesses were my teachers. I'd go in there and I ended up learning more from them, you know, than they did from me.
Absolutely. So, so that's about it. That's a, these are, these are commonplace things, but it's worth always tuning into them, right. Because we get. We cover things up. We get busy making a living Christmas shopping Thanksgiving, misas craziness. Mm-hmm. traffic and noise. And yeah, we can lose touch with what really matters.
Yeah. That's really what my work is all about, is finding ways to have touchpoints to the things that matter, um, while living with a chronic illness. Cuz it does add just one more thing that overtakes your mind and distracts you from what matters in your life. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're, you know, the, the, the people you love and your own love within and finding that, tuning into that.
Yeah. . Great. Well, I really appreciate you being here and talking to me. Okay. Well, great. Thank pleasure. Thank you. And keep up the good work. And may it, um, benefit many people, both therapists and, uh, and clients. I hope so. I hope so. Thanks, Matt. All right. Bye now. Talk to you later. Bye-Bye. Bye.
Listen to Matthew’s interview with me, Destiny Davis, on Ep 28: Spirituality and Chronic Illness: A Grounded Conversation w/ Matthew Morse, LMHC
Matthew Morse is a New York-based licensed mental health counselor. Matthew's unique path has led him through various experiences, from his early years in suburban St. Louis, Missouri, to his deep involvement in Tibetan Buddhist psychology and end-of-life care. Along the way, he's explored spirituality, psychedelics, and the art of healing. Matthew Morris was born in 1962 and spent his formative years in suburban St. Louis, Missouri, and Tacoma, Washington. As a teenager, he developed a passion for cycling, and exploring the open roads of Washington State. During his undergraduate years, he pursued a unique academic path, studying philosophy and ancient Greek at St. John's College in Annapolis, Maryland. However, his educational journey took a fascinating turn when, from 1986 to 1987, he studied poetry under notable figures like Allen Ginsburg, Robert Creeley, Philip Wallen, Clark Coolidge, and even the spirits of literary legends Jack Kerouac and Ted Berrigan at Naropa University.
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Meet Destiny - The host of The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast and a licensed mental health therapist in the states of Georgia and Florida. Destiny offers traditional 50-minute therapy sessions as well as therapy intensives and monthly online workshops for the chronic illness community.